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History 327 vs 413

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Truckdoctor Andy, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Flamed48
    Joined: Apr 19, 2011
    Posts: 606

    Flamed48
    Member

  2. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,839

    jimdillon
    Member

    Once again we have claims of ETs without any real specifics. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned an actual test that showed the 327/360 Corvette ran a 13.89 versus a 14.4 for the 413/410. This was the 11 to 1 engine versus the 13.5 and if that car ran in street trim it may take the 327 but at 13.5 to 1, a better venue may be the track. More compression on the street did not always guarantee success-moreso on the track IMO. Al Eckstrand, without question one of the all-time greats and member of the Mopar Hall of Fame as a driver ran a 413 SS/SA (“Res Ipsa Loquitor”-latin for the thing speaks for itself- a legal phrase and since he was a Detroit lawyer he thought it appropriate) ran a 12.72 at 113.35 at the 62 Indy Nationals. You can bet he had the most HP that Chrysler had at the time and he was the only Mopar to win class in the Stock cars classes and it also was the quickest time of the bunch.

    Since there was not a fuel injected Stingray until 63 in the interest of fairness, at the first NHRA national event for the new year (63), Bill Bagshaw, a pretty decent driver as well, had his new fuel injected Stingray in the only stock class he could run (A/SP), and he took class honors with a 12.40 at 113.20. In the furthest interest of fairness I believe Bill Hanyon had a 413 in his S/SA class winning Dodge at the same meet and he ran a 12.30 at 115.38.

    Maybe the song writers attended the meet and knew more about the topic that we give them credit for. I still say it is a toss up.
     
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  3. Frankie47
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 1,725

    Frankie47
    Member
    from omaha ne.

    13.5 or even 11.1 on the street......the good old days when leaded gas and too much compression ruled the streets.....no thanks, I'm out of Sunco at the moment...lol.
     
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  4. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 7,869

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    The only way the Vette wins:

    It's white.

    It's driven by a hot blond.

    Has a bumper sticker that says, "If you can beat me you can eat me."

    That bitch beat everyone from coast to coast...;)
     
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  5. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,391

    porknbeaner
    Member

    There was an article put out buy what would eventually become GMPP in I believe '63 that claimed 375 horse. I am going off of memory obviously. That said what most people recognize as a 350 horse motor (L-79) was also reported to develop 375.

    Never the less thanks for the clarification. I have been known to miss the mark occasionally. :D
     
  6. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,986

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    I thought her Vette was Canary Yellow.....:confused::D
     
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  7. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 4,592

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    But it was probably an automatic, though.:(
     
  8. badvolvo
    Joined: Jul 25, 2011
    Posts: 395

    badvolvo
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    Well, I had my little red vette out this weekend, No 413's were found to test the theory!
     
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  9. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,760

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    It was painted red on it's SE Ohio swing :)
     
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  10. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 7,869

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    Maybe I'm just old, I thought it was white. I'll gladly concur with anyone who may have "beat her"...;)
     
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  11. 413 by far faster.
     
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  12. Has anyone mentioned how many 413s made it into motorhomes? They were stump pullers! If it was a Max Wedge (1962 only) it would win easily.
     
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  13. classiccarjack
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,438

    classiccarjack
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    The industrial 413 had a gear drive timing set up, and it used a different style cylinder head. The exhaust ports were cast extending out, they kinda resemble a later Oldsmobile head.... Not practical for a car, but definitely a high Torque yielding Engine.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  14. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,986

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    But the heads interchange, correct????....
     
  15. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 12,897

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Nothing says hot rod like a 327 in a Winnebago!
    Sorry Steve, I couldn't help myself.
     
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  16. but you've heard of the story of the "hot rod race where the Ford and the Mercury were settin the pace, that story is true I'm here to say cause I was driving that Model A"...........
     
    belair likes this.
  17. True! But does anyone actually remember the song Hot Rod Race?


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  18. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,760

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    I figured your money would be on the Little Deuce Coupe for the win :)
     
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  19. COCONUTS
    Joined: May 5, 2015
    Posts: 603

    COCONUTS

    I think we need to call Brian Wilson.
     
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  20. yea it was in 66
    32 at daly city.jpg
     
  21. classiccarjack
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,438

    classiccarjack
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  22. 1962 dodge lancer
    Joined: Feb 26, 2013
    Posts: 8

    1962 dodge lancer
    Member
    from joliet, il

    413 no kidding!
     
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  23. Flamed48
    Joined: Apr 19, 2011
    Posts: 606

    Flamed48
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  24. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 902

    6sally6
    Member

    and 6 pages later........we're STILL discussing A SONG!!!
    (and it wasn't that good uva song...I know cause like most of y'all I was there)
    6sally6
     
  25. 49ratfink
    Joined: Feb 8, 2004
    Posts: 17,506

    49ratfink
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    from California

    one thing for sure I would not want to be doing much rapid acceleration in an early 60's Mopar anywhere near a curve or immovable objects.
     
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  26. Joc
    Joined: Apr 13, 2019
    Posts: 5

    Joc

    www.cartechbooks.com/featuredcar/62maxwedgedodge: Here is a link giving a 'specific' ET for the 62 Dodge of 12.1. The Magnificent Mopar 413 and 426 Max Wedge Engines This one is for the Plymouth Savoy giving the first ET for a stock car of under 12.0. www.roadandtrack.com/.../1963-chevrolet-corvette-1 This link gives 3 tests by Road & Track of the 63 Stingray the best of which was 14.0. 1963 Corvette Specifications | HowStuffWorks This link shows a 'published' ET of 14.5 for the Vette. 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Sting Ray C2 360bhp fuel injection ... This one gives 14.6 for the 327 car. I've found no tests in which the stock Vette ran the 1/4 in less than 14.0. You state that Bill Bagshaw ran 12.4 in the 63 Vette in an early 1963 national show. Can you find others who were able to do it that quickly in the Stingray? The Dodge routinely ran the 1/4 in the 12 second bracket. If the Vette could do that, then you are correct in stating that any race between the two could have either win it. Yet, I don't find examples of the Corvette being able to complete the 1/4 in much under 14 seconds.
     
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  27. Tires was the big difference. Back when we street raced, the 327 2x4's (55 Chevy) would pull the 413 off the line due to excessive wheel spin of the Dodge 300. The 413 (ram 2x4's) never could catch up by the next light. If we caught a green then the 413 would be even with the 327 by the next light.
     
  28. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,839

    jimdillon
    Member

    Although I am not sure this is a topic where anyone’s mind is going to be changed easily I do believe both cars are pretty close in a drag race. Originally I actually gave the nod to the 413 but I still believe a mythical drag race between the two would be close. I have owned a 64 Plymouth with a 426 wedge and it was quick and I presently own a 327/365 hp 62 Vette. I have drag raced both cars and am somewhat familiar with both.

    I drag raced back in the 60s and watched these cars run over the years. I do not believe your assertion that the Vettes were not fast during that era nor do I believe the 413 will beat the 327/360 by two seconds. I have tried to point out to you that these statements are not correct. I realize you will not buy into that but this is the HAMB and anyone that clicks on google with a 327 vs 413 will probably hit on this discussion and I wanted to clarify that not everyone believes as you do.

    My interests lie in early Corvettes from 1953 through 1962. I have numerous binders full of semi useless information regarding those years, mainly dealing with drag racing. I have no binders on the Stingray. When I mentioned the earlier test results of a 327/360 running 13.89 it is because it is a road test with a 62 Corvette. This is the same engine in the 63 and 64 Stingray. I have never looked up a road test on a 63 360 Stingray and the links you provided are not convincing sorry to say. I place zero credibility in many of these road tests because I am not sure if the driver was the janitor on Monday and the test driver on Tuesday. The 13.89 test is in the January issue of Hot Rod and they state in there that their “test drivers” spent the better part of the day and could not break into the 13s. They put Mickey Thompson in the car as he was at the track testing another car and he ran a 13.89. We both know he was a great driver as I believe the same with Eckstand and Bagshaw. After the Stingray Bagshaw drove a 57 Vette called Red Light Bandit and then went on to drive a 68 Dodge Dart called Red light Bandit so he was anything but a solid Chevy guy.

    Some of the road tests are somewhat questionable, as we all know the road tests done with the Hemi cars running in the 13s in 1969 and 1970 (Car Craft November 69 and Super Stock in December of 69). I believe properly tested these cars would run quicker-another discussion I will steer clear of as it will head nowhere, either.

    The results I gave you were actual NHRA drag races where cars won class. Bagshaw’s car ran in A/Sports and was stock within the rules. The same goes for Eckstrand and his 413-stock within the rules. Bagshaw’s 12.40 times were at the 63 Winternationals. At the time the NHRA only had two National meets. At the next event, the U. S. Nationals James Thompson out of Marion Ohio ran a 12.66 at 110.56 with his 63 Stingray. At the next National NHRA meet (64 Winternationals) Bagshaw once again ran his “stock” 63 Stingray to a class win with another decent time of 12.49 at 113.49. I do not have a time for the 413 at the time as it was old news due to the 426 Wedge.

    Once again I am not dissing the 413 and the early Mopars-they were great cars IMO opinion and would love to own a 64 Plymouth with a 426 wedge. I also want to compare apples to apples and I don’t believe either car would run away and hide from the other.
     
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  29. Joc
    Joined: Apr 13, 2019
    Posts: 5

    Joc

    I agree that the tests of the magazines such as Car And Driver are questionable. I tried to find tests done by the same magazine for both cars and was not successful. Also, as you point out, we are dealing with cars from different years. Although the fuel injected 327 was available in 62, the Stingray was not and so that could have made a difference in the ETs even though the engine was rated at 360hp for both years. The difficulty in using NHRA ETs is that not only were the tracks all different but so was the weather and temperature from day to day and often from hour to hour. So, unless one had the ETs for both cars side by side, we will never really know which one was faster in the 1/4 mile. Yet, since the Dodge was a year old by 1963, that probably never happened. BTW, I never wrote that the Vette was not fast, just that the tests that I found showed it to be slower than the 413 with the 13.5:1 compression ratio. Also, many 413s only had the 11.0:1 compression ratio. Although the factory claimed that there was only a 10HP difference between the two engines, clearly that much of a difference in compression ratios produced much more than a mere 10HP increase. The point is, were all of the races that you mention using the higher compression ratio engines? I suspect that there is no way of knowing that answer to that question. Although the engine was increased to 426 ci in 1963, the 13.5:1 ratio was dropped to I believe 12.5:1. Yet, the claimed HP was increased to 425. I doubt that anyone can know if the HP truly increased or decreased. So, the Beach Boys gave us an impossible question to answer unless one really had the two cars to race in 1963. Even if one did that, the Dodge would most likely have had more wear due to its age vs a fairly new Stingray. So, I yield that perhaps the Stingray was not as outclassed as the tests that I found seem to indicate. Yet, I don't know that the NHRA ETs from different tracks and on different days answer the question more convincingly than the magazine tests, especially since we don't know the compression ratios the 413s in the races that you mention. So, the song goes on with no clear winner to declare. Perhaps some day there will be a nostalgia race between two rebuilt cars that are as near to original specs as possible. Of course, even after the winner prepares to announce that victory, the owner of the other car will be questioning how original the winners car is. The question then will still remain unanswered.
     
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  30. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,986

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    Maybe the '63 Stingray came out in September of '62....
     
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