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History 327 vs 413

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Truckdoctor Andy, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,273

    sunbeam
    Member

    I wonder if the 7" tire rule made the difference.
     
  2. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 12,190

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    I found this read very informative about some of the behind the scenes interaction between Bill Jenkins and Jere Stahl.

    An excerpt:
    To get the Chevy II to launch and hook at 6,000-plus rpm on the 7-inch-wide tires, Bill took Jere Stahl’s idea and ran soft compound M&H slicks at 7 to 12 pounds of air pressure, thus creating a larger footprint and gaining more traction. As Jere recalled, “I walked over to Bill’s car after a WCS meet at Sanford, Maine, in June and let air out of his tires. Then I told him to either drive the way I’m going to explain or I’d drive it and show him. From that day on, there was no beating him by truck lengths again.”

    https://www.cartechbooks.com/featuredcar/grumpystoys/



     
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  3. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 4,019

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    Does not matter the 327 would have won. :D Powershift here we go. LOL.
     
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  4. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,694

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    That's an L-79 for ya...... :)
     
  5. Superman or batman
    It's the same but This is way better than listening to the kids talking about fortnight
     
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  6. badvolvo
    Joined: Jul 25, 2011
    Posts: 367

    badvolvo
    Member

    Hell I don't know who would win in a song, my guess it's up to the song writer. With that said, I wouldn't brag too much about a 413 beating a 327.
     
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  7. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 755

    6sally6
    Member

    5 PAGES LATER!!!!! Got wayyyy too much time on their hands!
     
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  8. classiccarjack
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,427

    classiccarjack
    Member

    You know... "To much time on my hands" is a song too! Muhahaha

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  9. 3340
    Joined: Jun 4, 2010
    Posts: 543

    3340
    Member

    a super stock 413 in the neighborhood in 1963 it was bad ass not to many to keep up with it, 63 427 Ford gave it fits
    I wasn’t a molar guy but was impressed, I had a 301 55 Chevy at the time and never even considered giving him a try.

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  10. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,677

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

     
  11. Joc
    Joined: Apr 13, 2019
    Posts: 5

    Joc

    According to the specs, in 1962, the maximum 413 wedge was available with a 13.5:1 compression ratio and only produced 420HP. Most claim that it actually produced much more HP and with that compression ratio, I think that most would agree. Don't forget that the manufacturers had agreed to produce nothing bigger than 430 CI with no more than 430HP. So, the big 3 companies often under rated their advertised HP ratings. In fact, there is a site that claims it tested a rebuilt 413 max wedge using original specs to produce 488HP. If this is even near the actual output of this engine in 1962, it certainly would probably have outperformed any corvette at 360HP. While the corvette was a bit lighter, 2850LBS. vs 3100LBS, I doubt that the lower weight compensate for the 100+ HP disadvantage, even with the fuel injection. I recall at the drag strip in the late 1960s and early 1970s that corvettes didn't do very well. Of course, there were many more super stocks than there were Corvettes at those races. So, I guess that we will never know which car was faster. Yet, I find it hard to believe that the 13.5:1 compression ratio Dodge big block was slower than the Corvette.
     
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  12. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 4,369

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It all depends on how they were equipped. I had a friend who bought a brand new '66 Corvette with an L79 (350 HP juice lifter 327). For some reason, he ordered it with 3.08 rear end gears There was a guy in town who had a '62 Impala with a 250 HP 327 and a powerglide. He would actually go hunting for my buddy to drag race him. Since we only raced up to 70 or so, he spanked him badly every time. A year later, I got my own '67 Corvette, also with an L79, but mine had 3.70 rear end gears. The guy with the Impala came looking for me. He got a real surprise. When I gave my friend a ride in my car, he was amazed at the difference in acceleration. It should also be said that my buddy was not a very good driver, and missed more gears than he made when trying to "speed shift".

    Up until this episode, most of us never gave a second thought to rear end ratios; we thought it was all motor. This opened a few eyes.
     
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  13. Joc
    Joined: Apr 13, 2019
    Posts: 5

    Joc

    Of course you are correct. Not only is the rear ratio a factor, but also the transmission ratio. I recall reading about a guy who ordered a new car with I believe a 456 differential and a close ratio 4 speed, even though the dealer warned him that the overall ratios were too low. First gear was useless as the engine was already winding out at about 5mph, almost like a rig with a dual axle. Anyway, I would think that anyone who would know enough to order the ram charger max wedge with 13.5:1 compression would know enough to order a rear to give it a good launch in low. On the other hand, maybe not.
     
  14. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 5,739

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    According to Google, it was a 62 413 Dart and a 63 Vette. Song by the Beach Boys. Now, were Jan and Dean doing the driving? I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  15. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 12,190

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    I can say pretty factually that if it's a 3.08 (ish) rear gear in a heavy car with a four speed you want the lowest first gear trans applicable, in the case of a 60's Chevy the Muncie M-20, with 252/256 first gear, whereas the M-21 has a 2.20 first gear, much harder on the clutch too.
    It doesn't matter if it's a daily driver with 250 hp or for some spirited driving with 350 hp, you gotta get the car moving.
    And just to keep the Chevy versus Mopar debate stirred up, I'd push my Chevy before I'd drive a Mopar!;)
     
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  16. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,349

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    In the mid-late 70's there was a street-race only car around Hayward, CA referred to by those in the know as "The Chrysler"- as in don't f with The Chrysler. Short distance stuff, eight mile at the most. 62 New Yorker with a stout 440, little converter and the biggest tires they could stuff under it, with 5.13 gears. BTW, painted in Starsky n Hutch style. Embarassed a lot of "hot" cars, street light to street light- and Hayward/ Oakland had some decent iron in the day. My Galaxie is set up similar, 427-8V, 4K converter, and 5.14s with a spool and big tires- it'll get your attention. Ever notice how Ford and Chebbie guys razz each other with no mercy, but when a chuggin' Mopar pulls up, they kinda shut up? Ya never know with them things lol
     
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  17. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,049

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Wouldn't be much to brag about and the risk of failure would be way to much to bear. LOL

    One of the things to consider is that in '62 or 3 the max output over the counter for a 327 was 375 horse. The 413 Max wedge was 410. Obviously there was more potential there for the 413 and the Chevy was probably close to its end point with '62 or 3 technology. I like both motors real well so to choose a favorite today would probably be totally economic. I think it would be a fun exorcise I futility to get one of each and see how much could be squeezed from either using technology from the era. Then maybe even more fun to hook 'em up and see which one had the best characteristics for making it down the 1320.

    The reason I say this is that the way that torque comes on will give an engine a real advantage on the strip. here is an example just for grins. We have run 2 different small blocks in the @raven 's roadster for the last say 10 years? One is my 400 horse (+/-) 355 and the other is the 600 horse (estimate) 427. My 355 was always more than a handful where the 427 is actually drivable. The difference is that the torque in my 355 hits all at once and is like a sledge hammer while the torque in the big inch motor comes on smooth. The 427 makes lots more zot than my old Timex but it is more drivable. There is a lot more to winning races than just sheer power. If you can't plant it you just are not going to win.
     
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  18. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 12,190

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    That would be 360 hp for 62/63 beano.
     
  19. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,779

    jimdillon
    Member

    I already chimed in earlier in the thread and although magazine tests showed the 360 hp ran better times than the 413, I realize that is not gospel and chose the 413 although in a street race it could either way IMO.

    To clarify a point brought up, I cannot agree that the Corvettes in the late 60s and early 70s did not perform very well. I think the actual statistics of the NHRA do not bear this out. At the 1967 U. S Nationals, Corvettes had 8 class wins in modified sports, modified production,sports and a stock class (C/S). The engine out of Ron Readers 57 Vette was put in Pappy Ellis's AM/SP and also won Street Eliminator against the gas class winners, the street roadster class winners, the modified sports winners and modified production winners. In 68 at the Nationals, Corvettes once again had 8 class wins in gas, modified production, sports and one stock win (F/S). Gianino in his D/G 57 Vette took not only the class win but street eliminator as well. Larry Lombardo in his 283 Vette took F/S honors and stock eliminator as well putting all the other stockers on the trailer. In 69 I have noted 6 class wins and there may be one or two I missed. In 70, Vettes were not only doing well in gas and stock but modified production as well. There probably was not a more dominant car in modified production in the 70s IMO.

    Also as to transmissions, the close ratio has a 2.20ish first gear and is not quite the low down performer of the wide ratio with the 2.50ish 1st gears. I changed from a M-21 close ratio in my 327 Vette to a M-22 wide ratio with a 327/365 and it really performs stronger from 1st to 2nd IMO. It has a 3.70 gear so the 2.50 gives it a little more umph. Also I drove with a 4.56 and a 4.88 on the street in the late 60s and you do not shift at 5mph unless you are short shifting. To some those are a really big gear but I have a couple 5 something and a 6 something gears on my shelf and I consider those big gears. My next build will have a 4.10 gear with a wide ratio which should be fun. In the late 60s my buddy ran a 61 Vette 283/270 (similar to Lombardo) with a 5.13 and that wound up pretty quick but sure made a statement out of the hole.

    Truth be told both the 327 and the 413/426 wedge ran pretty good in the early 60s. Flip of the coin in many instances.
     
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  20. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,273

    sunbeam
    Member

  21. Disclaimer: Have been a "Mopar" fellow for more than 40 years and wasn't at the song's race.
    Not previously mentioned is a well tuned/maintained stock Fuel Injected Corvette would seem less likely to foul the sparkplugs than a beleaguered high compression ram inducted 413. If both are cruising around the local hamburger joint before the race, then Corvette all the way. Shop teacher told us about being a tune-up guy back in those days, second time a dual point distributor was brought in messed up in the owner's driveway, he set it up with a single and threw the other set away. So another possibility of why the 413 was down on power, hooked up, and then was beat at the top end. As has already been discussed, the Corvette with gear should leave on a well running cross ram equipped 413 running pizza cutters. The Mopar has often shown the tendency to catch and pass, so stoplight to stoplight once again Corvette. Regarding Stahl and Jenkins, 7" tires seem to be the great equalizer.
     
  22. razoo lew
    Joined: Apr 11, 2017
    Posts: 284

    razoo lew
    Member
    from Calgary

    And here is the original poem that the song is based on. We can start a whole new discussion about the chances of a “stick 88” against an Impala with dual quads. (even had to ride the clutch on the Impala.....) And in what can only be one of the earliest crossovers ever, notice that they drag all the way to dead man’s curve.


    The Last Drag

    Out on the strip, where the road is wide
    Two cool shorts stand side by side
    My raked Impala and a stick '88
    Revving engines while we wait

    At last I see the road is clear
    Above the roaring engines we strain to hear
    Declining numbers at an even rate
    At "1" we both accelerate

    My Chevvy's light and the tires spin
    That heavier Oldsmobile digs in
    Its lake pipes thundering, the '88's churning
    My Impala is "squirling" and my tires are burnin'

    that stick '88 is winding out low
    But now my Impala is startin' to go
    Ridin' the clutch to get that traction
    My pressure plate's burnin' but now I'm in action

    I've gotta be cool that's all on low
    Power shift second "Hey here we go"
    Pedal to the floor and those dual-quads drinkin'
    That '88s lead sure is shrinkin'

    He's got more pony, but that's no good
    'cause I've got more cubes under my hood
    Now the '88 deck is coming up fast
    But he's shifted too soon and he'll never last

    I'm redlined in second and ahead there's a grade
    The Olds' still in high, he's gotta fade
    Half a length more, now we're neck and neck
    At Dead Man's Curve but what the heck

    He knows there's just time before
    And he won't pull over for I'd have it made
    So I'll cross the double line and I'll show this guy
    For it's now or never, do or die.
     
  23. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 12,190

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Must have been an epic era in drag racing to witness!
     
  24. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 608

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Holy Christ! Is this still going? Up until 10 hrs. ago, this hasn't been discussed since January! Lol! I guess I'm guilty of keeping it alive too!!!
     
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  25. Flamed48
    Joined: Apr 19, 2011
    Posts: 560

    Flamed48
    Member

    Tach it up, tach it up
    Buddy gonna shut you down
    It happened on the strip where the road is wide
    (Oooo rev it up now)
    Two cool shorts standin' side by side
    (Oooo rev it up now)
    Yeah, my fuel injected Stingray and a four-thirteen
    (Oooo rev it up now)
    Revvin' up our engines and it sounds real mean
    (Oooo rev it up now)
    Tach it up, tach it up, tach it up
    Buddy gonna shut you down
    Declinin' numbers at an even rate
    (Oooo movin' out now)
    At the count of one we both accelerate
    (Oooo movin' out now)
    My Stingray is light the slicks are startin' to spin
    (Oooo movin' out now)
    But the four-thirteen's really diggin' in
    (Oooo movin' out now)
    Gotta be cool now power shift here we go
    Superstock Dodge is windin' out and low
    But my fuel injected Stingray's really startin' to go
    To get the traction I'm ridin' the clutch
    My pressure plate's burnin' that machine's too much
    Pedal's to the floor hear the dual quads drink
    (Oooo pump it up now)
    And now the four-thirteen's lead is startin' to shrink
    (Oooo pump it up now)
    He's hot with ram induction but it's understood
    (Oooo pump it up now)
    I got a fuel injected engine sittin' under my hood
    (Oooo pump it up now)
    Shut it off, shut it off buddy now I shut you down
    Shut it off, shut it off buddy now I shut you down
    Shut it off, shut it off buddy now I shut you down
    Shut it off, shut it off buddy now I shut you down
    Shut it off, shut it off buddy now I shut you down
    Songwriters: Carl Wilson



    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  26. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,694

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    Yeah! If your ever on the street, don't try to choose her... ;)
     
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  27. Oldioron
    Joined: Dec 12, 2018
    Posts: 908

    Oldioron
    Member

    In 64 the mopar didn't have a thing for the Tbolt, Ford won SS that year.
     
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  28. Heck I would rather have a neighbor with a chevy that I could bum a ride from than to own a MoPar. Just hearing the noise the starter makes when cranking sets my nerves on edge.
     
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  29. The little old lady from Pasadena driving a shiny red super stock dodge whipped everyone's ass. There was nobody meaner.
     
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  30. Joc
    Joined: Apr 13, 2019
    Posts: 5

    Joc

    I think that we can all agree on one thing, both of the cars must be defined before the question can be answered. The Corvette is clearly a fuel injected one with a 4 speed. However, the 413 is not defined in the song. In 1962, the 413 ranged from a 340HP version with 10:1 compression ratio to the maximum wedge rated at 420HP with 13.5:1 compression ratio. There was also a 410HP version with 11:1 compression ratio. Since the Stingray had the highest HP engine offered by Chevy, then the Dodge should also have the highest engine that Dodge offered. That then is 13.5:1 compression ratio engine and with the torqueflight transmission. Although the engine was rated at 420 horsepower, the manufacturers rated their engines to be within the agreed upon 430 HP maximum. With a 13.5 compression ratio, this engine certainly had much more than 420 HP. The records show that with this engine that car was consistently completing the 1/4 mile in under 12 seconds while the fuel injected Stingray took at least 14 seconds at best. The records themselves show that the Corvette was the car that should have been shut off at least 2 seconds before it completed the 1/4 mile.
     

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