Technical 318 Chrysler going in my 41 Plymouth coupe

Dick 41 · Apr 29, 2014

Project:
Engine - 1986 Chrysler 318 - 3 speed standard bell & trans. Going in 1941 Plymouth P 11 business coupe.

I would like to use my 41 trans. to keep the emergency brake setup. Parts swap refrence charts do not show if my 41 standard 3 speed Plymouth tranny will bolt up to a 318 standard tranny bell housing. If not, I will install the 3 speed standard coming with the engine. Anyone here know?

I have studied the prior posts here for days. Great info. from the been there-done that folks. You can't beat personal experience! I didn't find a thread on a source for an adapter to mate this 318 engine/bell housing to the stock 3 speed 41 tranny?

Adapter Sources Tried: So far Speedway doesn't have an adapter, same for Wildcap, and Bendtsens. Waiting to hear from Butch's Cool Stuff. Any info. on an adapter, or a link that I didn't find?

Speedway or Butch's do have all the motor mount parts needed.

A major thank you for those prior posts.

Dick4

Atwater Mike · Apr 29, 2014

Dick, kudos on using a straight forward engine that is often overlooked.
If guys had experience with the 318, it would find its way into many more early Mopars than it has.
"Oh well, the SBC fits in there..."

I would design a bracket for the late 3 speed tranny case for that E-brake handle.
It could come up thru (or near to) the factory hole in the floor.
Hard to beat Chrysler engineering.

Dick 41 · Apr 29, 2014

Hi Mike: Yep. No SBC for this ol Mo Parer! I have a line on a 241 cu. in 53 Dodge mini hemi too but the guy wants me to buy the whole car and I don't need all of it. So, I am either ruling out the $2200-$2500 to rebuild the L head 6 with a tired lung...or not. I am favoring the 318 idea.

The threads are great here. Concerns I have seen identified are the left side exhaust clearances, 12 volt conversion, to cut or not cut sheetmetal, emergency brake loss, automatic vs standard tranny and motor mount issues.

The stock 41 e brake is a dashboard pull handle that cable connects to the brake drum at the rear of the standard trans. I don't know if a tranny attached type of e brake could be mounted at the end of a more modern 318 standard trans. If not, I am looking at replacing the rear end...or going without an emergency brake.

Andydodge (from Autrailia) , over on P15-D24 replied with good advice too. He has the 318 in a 40 Plymouth. He doesn't think there is an adapter out there to mate the 41 tranny to the modern bell housing. I am sure he is right.

btw: My cousin lives in Atwater. You are about 2 hours from me (Pioneeer, CA off hwy 88).

Atwater Mike · Apr 29, 2014

I think an 8-3/4" rear end is the answer here. (my senility forgot about that drum E-Brake on the tail shaft!)

That's the route I'd go, some good narrow widths are available...plus, the hand brake situation is solved.

I have a couple of hemis, too. My son just found a 276 Desoto, it's in his '25 Dodge Coupe!

Heloo to Pioneer, CA. We be neighbors, puttin' near...

George · Apr 29, 2014

Yup, use the tranny that comes with the engine. 65-7 C body axle is a direct bolt in. Why use a tranny & axle designed for a much less powerfull engine?

Ulu · Apr 29, 2014

Forget using the '41 rear axle. You'll tear it apart. Get a modern rear with parking brakes, problem solved.

Dick 41 · Apr 29, 2014

good advice all. Guess I will be looking for that 65-7 C body axle somewhere near Stockton or Sacramento. I like the bolt in aspect a lot. And a slove for the e brake and probably the drive shaft adaptation too.

If this think happens, i will probably have a P11 block or two, plus rear end and 3 on tree tranny f/s. Maybe should keep it in case a buyer down the road wants it back to stock? Then again, she who matters (wife Kerry) says we are 'neber' gonna sell her 41 Plym.
TY for good info.
 [FONT=&quot]“If I tell you I will fix something right away, there's no need to keep reminding me every six months."[/FONT]


Dick41

need louvers ? · Apr 30, 2014

Hey Dick,

I didn't see this until now. I've done this deal a few times in years past. Forget the stock trans and rear as others are saying, and go with later stuff. You'll find your life many times easier if you offset the engine and trans unit 1-1/2" to the passenger side of the car when you do the install. Late sixties/early seventies "A" body exhaust manifolds are very helpful with this deal too. The off set helps exhaust and steering box play well over there on the left. That's what Chrysler themselves did when they stuff that engine in the "A" body cars back in the sixties.

For the rear end, there are a couple "C" and "B" body raers that will "bolt" in, but in any case you'll find that the spring mount pads are much wider than the leaf springs, and that the pinion angle isn't going to be correct for what you are doing. I would abandon looking for stuff that is kinda hard to find these days, and go with the later 8 1/4" stuff out of a '77-'87 rear wheel drive 'F" bodied car. These rear ends, while not indestructible like an 8 3/4", are plenty tough enough to handle the rigors of a modified 318 for may years of heavy service, and their ranks haven't been decimated by muscle car guys and elevated to gold status like the 8 3/4". In either case you'll need to weld on axle saddles.

ffr1222k · Apr 30, 2014

When someone mentions the 318 I always go back and read this article. I think it's potential is way overlooked

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/mopar/0667em_mopar_318_engine/

Ulu · Apr 30, 2014

A 318 Plymouth with the axle from a slant 6 Plymouth is a sweet setup. I had than in the Volare I had bought as a donor car for my '47.

....then I bought this Cadillac, and the Plymouth sorta got forgotten. ;(

George · Apr 30, 2014

need louvers ? said: ↑

Hey Dick,

I didn't see this until now. I've done this deal a few times in years past. Forget the stock trans and rear as others are saying, and go with later stuff. You'll find your life many times easier if you offset the engine and trans unit 1-1/2" to the passenger side of the car when you do the install. Late sixties/early seventies "A" body exhaust manifolds are very helpful with this deal too. The off set helps exhaust and steering box play well over there on the left. That's what Chrysler themselves did when they stuff that engine in the "A" body cars back in the sixties.

For the rear end, there are a couple "C" and "B" body raers that will "bolt" in, but in any case you'll find that the spring mount pads are much wider than the leaf springs, and that the pinion angle isn't going to be correct for what you are doing. I would abandon looking for stuff that is kinda hard to find these days, and go with the later 8 1/4" stuff out of a '77-'87 rear wheel drive 'F" bodied car. These rear ends, while not indestructible like an 8 3/4", are plenty tough enough to handle the rigors of a modified 318 for may years of heavy service, and their ranks haven't been decimated by muscle car guys and elevated to gold status like the 8 3/4". In either case you'll need to weld on axle saddles.
Click to expand...

A buddy has the C axle in his '41, said it was a bolt in. Don't remember him mentioning doing anything to the perches.

desertdroog · May 1, 2014

need louvers ? said: ↑

...

Late sixties/early seventies "A" body exhaust manifolds are very helpful with this deal too. The off set helps exhaust and steering box play well over there on the left. That's what Chrysler themselves did when they stuff that engine in the "A" body cars back in the sixties.

....
Click to expand...

Chip, do you know what the exhaust ports size are on the ones you are running? They are both passenger sides right, hence the center dump I noticed on your rig the last time I saw it? Did you have any port matching work done on it? I figure it would help round out the discussion regarding performance tricks and being budget minded.

Which leads into the following, because I found information regarding stock manifolds in my Magnum swap research (Sorry Chip, I've no love for keeping my flathead. )

Mopar Muscle Pg 77 "Dakota Secrets" said:

As for the "good" Magnum manifolds, the info below originally appeared in the June 1999 Mopar Muscle Pg 77 "Dakota Secrets"

1992 and early 1993 factory Magnum cast iron exhaust manifolds are larger than later manifolds. The 1992 manifolds are 2 1/8" inside diameter, and the newer models are 1 7/8" inside diameter. The casting numbers for the 1992/early 1993 exhaust manifolds are:

53006617 (driver's side)
53006618 (passenger's side)
Click to expand...

I hope this isn't a derail, but whenever stock parts can be used in lieu of the aftermarket, I get excited..particularly when they work well.

Dick 41 · Apr 30, 2014

Thanks evryone. I am compiling a list of your recommendations and will collect the necessary parts as suggested. For starters, I am asking for informatiion from the seller about the rear end in the donor vehicle for the 318. 1986 Chrysler N.Y. Also looking into front motor mount adapter stuff. i could use a link to a venor on that one.

I posted a similar to this over on P15-D24 forum and got lots of help there too.
Thank You Again
Dick 41

Dick 41 · May 1, 2014

I just downloaded the Speedway Catalog in search of motor mount adapters for the front mounts and posibly a rear trans. mount. Any pros and cons here, adapter sources, part numbers you used succesfully? (1986 Chrysler 318 into 1941 Plymouth Busn. Coupe)

Today I am finalizing my parts purchase for this conversion and creating a major pallet of "Stuff". All of it to be shipped west from Maryland to California. Holding my breath on shipping charges lol.

I am good with the engine offset. Not to seem dense (though I can do that quite well ) I found several threads, plus your repliies, regarding offsetting the motor to the right. If I understand correctly, everything in the drive train center line (from front engine damper pulley to rear of transmission) is offset to the right 1" to 1 1/2". From the transmission U joint continuing to the rear end, there will be a minor angle adjustment for the driveshaft & U joints to accomodate. I read the Chrysler Factory folks did it this way too. Have you readers done it this way? Have you encountered any probems having done this offset? (vibration,U joint wear, etc.)

Other posts suggest certain stock exhust manifolds might remove the need to offset. If that is true, can someone tell me which stocker manifold I am looking for. I note Desertdroog's post above re: "A" body exhaust manifolds. Probably change both sides in case there is a port measurement differnce? I saw some old posts (2008) for these manifolds F/S. Anyone have some F/S presently?

I am very very grateful for this forum! I read until 3 AM all the relevant threads I could find. I am sure there are more though!

Dick41

George · May 1, 2014

Dick 41 said: ↑

I just downloaded the Speedway Catalog in search of motor mount adapters for the front mounts and posibly a rear trans. mount. Any pros and cons here, adapter sources, part numbers you used succesfully? (1986 Chrysler 318 into 1941 Plymouth Busn. Coupe)

Today I am finalizing my parts purchase for this conversion and creating a major pallet of "Stuff". All of it to be shipped west from Maryland to California. Holding my breath on shipping charges lol.

I am good with the engine offset. Not to seem dense (though I can do that quite well ) I found several threads, plus your repliies, regarding offsetting the motor to the right. If I understand correctly, everything in the drive train center line (from front engine damper pulley to rear of transmission) is offset to the right 1" to 1 1/2". From the transmission U joint continuing to the rear end, there will be a minor angle adjustment for the driveshaft & U joints to accomodate. I read the Chrysler Factory folks did it this way too. Have you readers done it this way? Have you encountered any probems having done this offset? (vibration,U joint wear, etc.)

Other posts suggest certain stock exhust manifolds might remove the need to offset. If that is true, can someone tell me which stocker manifold I am looking for. I note Desertdroog's post above re: "A" body exhaust manifolds. Probably change both sides in case there is a port measurement differnce? I saw some old posts (2008) for these manifolds F/S. Anyone have some F/S presently?

I am very very grateful for this forum! I read until 3 AM all the relevant threads I could find. I am sure there are more though!

Dick41
Click to expand...

The engine & tranny is offset the same amount, they stay on the same plane, relative to the axle, as they would be w/o the offset. The drivers side ex man (boxy Valiants, Darts from late 60s through @ least 74) have a curl in them that wraps around the steering column like it was made for it, & yes that is with the offset. Pass. side clearance wasn't a problem. Engine mounts: If it wasn't mentioned already try Butch's Cool Stuff. The tranny crossmember is easy to fab if you can weld, or have fabbed if you don't. A piece of 2X2, brackets to attach to the frame, a drop loop tranny mount(I think for a truck) & weld two horizontal plates "ears" on either side of the mount, drill the 2 ears for a cross bolt through the mount. 1st time I did this project I bought one & was a bit pissed about how much a part supplyer charged for such a simple thing, guess I was expecting something more complicated, like the massive & complex OEM crossmembers. Ex Man fit: Check out a header co. like Hooker & see if they list say LA 67 through 86 or if there's a cut off in dates before '86.

need louvers ? · May 1, 2014

Hey 'Droog,

The manifolds on mine are both 70's/80's center dump 360 truck stuff that I angle milled a touch to tuck them in, then spent the better part of a week "porting" them to promote as much airflow as I could. They started out with exits a shade under 2", and now they are a touch over 2 1/4" at the out let. Then, after all that was done I sent them to a company over in S.D. that was call "Extrude Hone" to pump a abrasive loaded "silly putty" through them to clean them up and polish the insides even further. So much for "bolt on" stuff, but you know me better than that, right?

Also, remember my car has the Mustang II unit Z'd a bit, so what fits my deal isn't going to fit a stock clip.

proartguy · May 1, 2014

When I did the 318 swap in my '51 Plm. I also offset the rear end the same amount the engine was offset and used a spacer to make the wheels equal in the fenders. I wanted to avoid a second angle - sideways. Single plane universals are only meant to work in one direction. Worked great.

On the '51 a pickup oil pan was needed. The A body drivers side manifold is the key item to miss the steering. A center dump exhaust manifold will complicate the swap.

George · May 1, 2014

proartguy said: ↑

On the '51 a pickup oil pan was needed.
Click to expand...

Van or pick up rear sump pan, oil pick up tube, dipstick & d.s. tube.

Ulu · May 1, 2014

proartguy said: ↑

When I did the 318 swap in my '51 Plm. I also offset the rear end the same amount the engine was offset and used a spacer to make the wheels equal in the fenders. I wanted to avoid a second angle - sideways. Single plane universals are only meant to work in one direction. . . .
Click to expand...

OK, I don't get this at all.
If that was true, it seems like when you drove on a side-hill, the shaft would act up.

If the pinion and tailshaft are parallel it doesn't matter in which plane the offset occurs. The pinion, tailshaft, and driveshaft will all still fall in one plane no matter the direction. It just won't be orthogonal to gravity.

proartguy · May 2, 2014

Ulu said: ↑

OK, I don't get this at all.
If that was true, it seems like when you drove on a side-hill, the shaft would act up.

If the pinion and tailshaft are parallel it doesn't matter in which plane the offset occurs. The pinion, tailshaft, and driveshaft will all still fall in one plane no matter the direction. It just won't be orthogonal to gravity.
Click to expand...

Maybe I was not clear enough.

The discussion had included the suggestions to move the engine and transmission to the passenger side to allow for more steering box clearance. On the stock A Mopars the pinion is also toward the passenger side (as viewed from above). My comment was to make sure this relationship is maintained. Regular single plane universals only allow for the up and down movement of the rear axle.

Ulu · May 2, 2014

proartguy said: ↑

. . . Regular single plane universals only allow for the up and down movement of the rear axle.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that at all.

270dodge · May 2, 2014

I have just measured the drive train offset in a 64 dodge B body. The engine tranny and pinion are all offset 2 inches to the passenger side. This an original unmodified car. I would have to believe in Ma Mopars engineers. They seldom made mistakes (well except for the left hand wheel lugs). There must be a reason that the entire drive line is lined up in that fashion.

need louvers ? · May 2, 2014

Look, just off set the whole shebang to the right enough to clear the exhaust and steering and the it will work just great! There is no need to re-engineer the whole deal, your u-joints WON'T fall apart and the car won't kill you. as I said and a couple of others, Chrysler did the exact same off set at the factory on damn near every car it built through out the sixties and into the seventies.

I have never tried the Magnum manifolds in this swap, but the '67-'76 "A" body units do work perfectly.

proartguy · May 2, 2014

Ulu said: ↑

I don't believe that at all.
Click to expand...

If there are compound angles the working angle (vertical) of each universal is very limited.

My first highway trip in a newly purchased '49 Dodge truck resulted in smoke billowing out the back and a fire underneath before I got pulled over. The builder, unknown to me, had offset the engine and trans 2 inches to clear the steering, but left the pinion centered on the frame. Result: two angles, too much heat.

My advice stands; offset the engine/trans and pinion the same amount. Not a big deal. On my '51 it is 1.25".

I am not basing this on belief, but my experiences.

For further information-

http://www2.dana.com/pdf/J3311-1-DSSP.pdf

Ulu · May 2, 2014

270dodge said: ↑

I have just measured the drive train offset in a 64 dodge B body. The engine tranny and pinion are all offset 2 inches to the passenger side. This an original unmodified car. I would have to believe in Ma Mopars engineers. They seldom made mistakes (well except for the left hand wheel lugs). There must be a reason that the entire drive line is lined up in that fashion.
Click to expand...

Look at 4WD drive vehicles. That front driveshaft goes sideways plus down on many. The driveshaft on my Kawasaki goes down and out.

That driveshaft doesn't know if it's offset vertically, horizontally or both. It only "knows" the absolute angle of departure (which lies in a plane containing both pinion and tailshaft.)

A straighter driveline is a more efficient one.

Chrysler lined up the pinion because it saves power and reduces vibration.
Not because it doesn't work if you don't.

The greater the angles, the more power it robs in friction and by inertia.

Ulu · May 2, 2014

proartguy said: ↑

If there are compound angles the working angle (vertical) of each universal is very limited.

My first highway trip in a newly purchased '49 Dodge truck resulted in smoke billowing out the back and a fire underneath before I got pulled over. The builder, unknown to me, had offset the engine and trans 2 inches to clear the steering, but left the pinion centered on the frame. Result: two angles, too much heat.

My advice stands; offset the engine/trans and pinion the same amount. Not a big deal. On my '51 it is 1.25".

I am not basing this on belief, but my experiences.

For further information-

http://www2.dana.com/pdf/J3311-1-DSSP.pdf
Click to expand...

That Spicer manual doesn't describe things too well. they, like you, are thinking in 2D. (Imagine the angle in 3D instead.)

What it's saying is to keep angles small, and that if you offset both ways, the angles are compounded. This makes more vibration, so you need to keep them even smaller.

There is no such thing as a 2-plane offset in a shaft with parallel pinion and tailshaft. The plane it resides in is simply not vertical.

I wonder what the total angle was on your truck? If it was jacked up in back, plus offset sideways, it could have had some severe angles.

Did you feel lots of vibration before the fire?

270dodge · May 2, 2014

[
A straighter driveline is a more efficient one.

Chrysler lined up the pinion because it saves power and reduces vibration.
Not because it doesn't work if you don't.

The greater the angles, the more power it robs in friction and by inertia.[/QUOTE]

I believe that I'll jump on your bandwagon. As I remember AMC had cars with the angles both directions. It seems to me that one might replace the joints at 60,000 miles instead of 100,000 .

proartguy · May 2, 2014

Sorry this thread got hijacked into an arcane discussion about driveline angles.

I really cannot recall all the details of my '49 Dodge with the driveline problem. It was 35 years ago. Stock height truck and as I recall the C-6 behind the 429 Ford Cobra Jet had a rather long tail shaft which made the drive line angle (sideways) more acute. It was solved by using a mid '60s Lincoln driveline which had a double Carden joint.

In 50 years of doing hot rods I have seen some strange engineering including a '37 Chevy with a Chrysler hemi which was installed crooked to gain steering clearance! I have seen lots of crazy stuff on 4wd vehicles. For the most part they are not intended for high speed use. Run your Kawasaki or what ever how you want. I was only trying to re-enforce that the 318/904 in an early Mopar works very well when using the factory A body as a basis.

Ulu · May 2, 2014

Thanks 270

I shouldn't have said "by inertia" exactly though.

A drive shaft which isn't in a 100% straight line will "pump". It's motion isn't nice and smooth like a rotating wheel.

It's more like an oval wheel. It pumps back and forth axially. It also pumps going around. It speeds and slows its RPM twice per revolution.

No wonder those u-joints are so persnickety. They put up with a lot.

Anyhow, when things have inertia, it takes energy to pump them around. That energy is 100% wasted, which is one reason that drive shafts are far less efficient than chain and belt drive.

So the worse the angles at your u-joints, the higher the pumping forces, & therefore lost energy increases.

BTW, vehicles with long suspension travel don't really have enough reserve strength to accommodate much side offset, as the total offset will be quite high, but every vehicle has some side offset no matter what you do, because the axles move sideways when the body rolls.. You can set the shaft up 100% straight, but a soon as you open the door it goes off a trifle, and every motion of the vehicle induces some sideways displacement..

Ulu · May 2, 2014

proartguy said: ↑

Sorry this thread got hijacked into an arcane discussion about driveline angles. . . . Run your Kawasaki or what ever how you want. I was only trying to re-enforce that the 318/904 in an early Mopar works very well when using the factory A body as a basis.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we got way off track. I didn't mean to drag this on at your expense either.

Also I think the 318 is one of the best possible choices myself, having owned both Ford and GM small blocks. Chrysler made fewer compromises in the design, IMO, and it shows in how tough they are.

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