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302w to clevland heads??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Dan, Feb 5, 2010.

  1. uncle buck
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,661

    uncle buck
    Member

    They both use the same motormounts , bellhousing and head bolt dimensins - although the 351c and 351w both use larger headbolt diameter than a 289-302 as mentioned.
     
  2. 40fordtudor
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,503

    40fordtudor
    Member

    I'm running the cast iron Windsor Jr's on a 302 and am happy with it---
     
  3. mrforddude
    Joined: May 30, 2010
    Posts: 134

    mrforddude
    Member

    I my memory is still working, there was a place in Fort Smith AR that was building the intakes and there have been a few tech articles in like one of the all Ford mags (modified Mustang and Fords?) on how to do this and what all was required (special head bolts and such as already stated). Yeah they are cool but cost efficient...not so much.

    If it were mine (which it obviously ain't) I would go with the GT40P's or look around for some used aluminum that you can pick up for a deal that you can match your whole engine to (cam, headers, intake yadda yadda...)

    SBF are some fun little engines to play with and can make some crazy ass power if you do your homework and match all your components to maximize your package.

    Good luck and enjoy whatever you decide...if it makes your sticker peck out that's all that matters...
     
  4. 26 roadster
    Joined: Apr 21, 2008
    Posts: 2,017

    26 roadster
    Member

    I got my set up from a cousin, intake, machined heads w/screw in studs and guide plates and boss pistons hung on rods. All I had to have was a .040 block and crank.
    $500.00 and since I hadn't done it, I now have.
     
  5. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 1,308

    birdman1
    Member

    I have NEVER know a chevy guy that can build a good Ford!! and the Cleveland-Boss 302 especially. But I know plenty of Ford engine builders that can build a chevy!! LOL
     
  6. The 'Clevor' was the hot deal in the early 70s, but with the advances in cylinder head technology that came with the Mustang '5.0' is now just a curiosity. You can make more and useful power with modern aftermarket heads unless you're limited to iron OEM heads by class rules and are willing to sink big bucks into head mods. Guys forget that the racers used to machine about half of the exhaust ports off the heads then fitted them with 'extensions' to raise the ports for good flow. Can you say 'exhaust leaks' on the street?

    One of the car mags did a 'Budget Boss 302' build in the early seventies with Cleveland heads. By using a mid-sixties OEM 289 4V intake with adaptors, it cosmetically looked like a 'factory' Boss. But all they got out of it was about 300 HP. The two-bolt block wasn't capable of the high RPM that the real Boss could turn, so it was a bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing. Had the looks but not the performance.
     
  7. caton462
    Joined: Jul 17, 2013
    Posts: 176

    caton462
    Member

    2 barrel Cleveland heads and 400 heads before 1972 have 2.041 intake valves 1.655 exhaust, 4 barrel heads 2.191 intake 1.710 exhaust with smaller chambers. I used these because it was the easiest choice for making my own intake (no coolant passages to plug) then got lucky and found an aluminum intake to fit $70.00. Enough power to be fun and drive daily.
     
  8. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I'd just build a Cleveland in the first place...
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  9. uncle buck
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,661

    uncle buck
    Member

    Another thread back from the dead....
     
  10. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
    Member

    Yes, but I always thought the 4bbl 351C heads on a 400 block could be fun. Maybe if I'm able to retire rich I'll play around with the idea. Guess I better start buying lottery tickets! -Dave
     
  11. I'm a chevy guy and got a chance to build 3X fords cuz no one else would.. "he he" , and one crate motor install - tune. 1969 351W with flattops and some ford special brand motor sports cam with the 69 heads, a 289 nice 67 stang motor, and a 1970 351 Mustang Cleveland 4 bbl motor. Bought a nice Ford book from Summit......had all the "what to watch for".....need to be a scientist to understand all the valve train changes on 260-302's.. did not know how limited on lift some of the stocker heads are, Also the "Main Bearing Issues" that might snag a few guys due to the cylinder block distortion issues. better have a nice 2 lb hammer to "tap tap tap" the main caps or you will spin a main bearing.. All three vintage iron engines had a need for this little trick, put a inch lb torque wrench and verify you got the caps centered and settled. Other than that.....kind of neat engines to rebuild, just take your time or its Boat Anchor time.
     
  12. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 5,395

    sunbeam
    Member

    I have a ozzie head 347 clevor would I do it again no to many good aftermarket Windsor style heads out there.
     
  13. Edsel58a
    Joined: Jan 17, 2008
    Posts: 757

    Edsel58a
    Member

    Here is some info on flow comparisons flow.jpg
     
  14. Yes it did . ^^^^
    Unlike many posting I have actually owned a Boos and drove it. You could not lug it around, it is not a grocery getter motor. The 302 was more than enough displacement for the free flowing heads, but you had to be willing to keep your revs in the 4K and up range. This is where you loose the common hot rodder; the common hot rodder does not want to run a motor that sounds like it may come apart at any moment.

    Personally if I had the basic parts (heads and short block) I would build a clone. I couldn't build a real boss because the block was a little different, but I could build a sweet running Boss clone and I would not use the 2V heads, 4V and a sheet metal manifold, go big or go home. ;)


    Note: just last night the missus asked me if we could own another Boss. I told her we could but it would probably not be in another Mustang. She chuckled and said, "'54 Corvette?" Funny that someone should drag this old thread back up today. LOL
     
  15. 4thhorseman
    Joined: Feb 14, 2014
    Posts: 261

    4thhorseman
    Member
    from SW Desert

    When I bought my OT Mustang it had a 393ci Cleveland/top loader setup in it with 4V closed chamber heads. 11:1 compression and 4.11's on a spool. I regularly spun it to 7250 rpm grabbing gears quick and hard with a Hurst T handle Indy shifter. WHAT A FUN COMBO! I rebuilt it and sold it to a lucky chap to build my first BBF to run quicker. But I sure do wish I still had it. I would absolutely build another.
     
  16. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,482

    George
    Member

    Lots of people make similar comments, but the Aussie 302C has the 4V valves & it seems to run like any other engine.
     
  17. Check your PMs


    The boss that Ford built here was a Trans Am motor, the ones that ended up in street cars were just detuned enough to make them drivable. They were designed to run at high RPM and if you didn't drive them that way they were a stone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  18. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I have a '71 4v cleveland core here, lately been thinking about building a pseudo Boss-351 from it and sticking it in my '67 Falcon. The last time I built a cleveland was 35 yrs ago, but they always ran hard, and I have learned a lot since then.
     
  19. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    back in the day, I had two friends that had heavily modified Boss 302's, one in a '68 Falcon similar to my own. I wouldn't build one if you are going to insist on the typical "HAMB" gear ratios, they would really be a dog pulling 3.08s. Well, hell, pretty much EVERYTHING is a dog pulling 3.08's:rolleyes: but a Boss 302 would REALLY be a DOG.
     
  20. I too love the Cleveland Hamster, but if you want to get serious about it you first have to over come the oiling problems that the Cleveland motor has. you and I can overcome that problem but the average Joe probably wouldn't even worry about it until it was too late.

    Good idea though. I personally would stuff it in my current mule but that is because I don't own a falcon. LOL
     
  21. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Cleveland heads have their valves in different locations than Windsor heads, therefore the valve pockets in your Windsor pistons won't line up. If you're camming this thing (and why wouldn't you) this will be a genuine problem.

    If you try to use Cleveland pistons, their compression height is lower than Windsor pistons. The Boss engine solution was to use "long rods" (the same length as 289 rods) to make up for the shorter piston height.

    All said, this seems like a lot of swapping for questionable results, especially when you can take your 302 and swap in a set of aftermarket heads that outperform the Cleveland heads in a couple of hours with the engine still installed.
     
  22. Well I am a Chevy guy and I probably don't have a clue what I am talking about because Fords are so much different than any other 4 stoke internal combustion engine :rolleyes: but you can buy pistons for the 302 that have no valve pockets and cut your own. *or you can order pistons with the proper valve pockets. ;)

    *JE pistons can be custom ordered for any application they machine all their pistons from forged blanks
     
  23. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    The big problem you have is that the '73-'76 SBF block had a higher deck height to lower compression for emissions/fuel economy. When combined with the larger chamber 351 heads, you're gonna have a lot of compression loss unless the deck and/or the heads were cut down during the rebuild. Since it's bored over, you especially want to know what pistons were used because '73-'76 engines had a 1.605" stock compression height, while most other SBF pistons are 1.600" and "rebuilder" pistons are 1.585". The worst combination would be a stock deck height, rebuilder pistons, and 351 heads. You'll probably be down below 7:1 compression ratio.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  24. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    If money, tools, and skills are no object, you can always get what you need.
     
  25. Some of us are too stupid to know that you can build a screw together hot rod I guess.

    I found some places that you can buy pistons for a boss 302 some of them are no more expensive than the pistons that I buy for my Chebby street motors.

    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Puistons+Boss+302
     
  26. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Yes, Beaner, but you need the connecting rods to match. In a pinch, you can use 289 rods, but they aren't as beefy as the genuine Boss rods.
     
  27. Yea you know what they say speed costs money. :D

    I personally would just use the 302 rods and get my pistons sans pockets, but not everyone has that option. There is another option, H beam rods are a really affordable option these days. So many options for the working man. LOL :D
     
  28. The deck height difference is only .023" so it really isn't a problem - you just need to know what you are working with and accommodate as necessary. I don't think this guys (Mr.H) motor had Cleveland heads, I think he had 351W heads, so the chambers aren't a big issue - but then it's been 5 years so he probably sorted it out ;)
     
  29. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    The deck height difference is only 0.023", but don't forget piston compression height, especially since it was bored. Original pistons were 1.605"CH with dish tops which is kind of rare in OEM Ford world (stock was only 8:1 compression). If the rebuilder put in 1.585" pistons, they'll be way down in the hole at TDC. Also, the OEM heads were 57cc and 351W heads can be as large as 69cc.

    I encountered the same issue on a '75 302. My solution was to swap in 289 connecting rods bringing the 1.585" pistons 0.011" out of the hole.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  30. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I wouldn't use a flat-top piston in a pseudo Boss 302,and if you are all scared of compression and cam:rolleyes:, again, you have no business messing with canted valve ford stuff. Its not rocket science, you just use Boss 302 pistons and 289 (or better, aftermarket, most stock sbf rods are broach-cut and have NO BUSINESS in a serious motor) rods, but like I said, just build a cleveland...
    I should probably just stay out of this one, as a general rule, reality has no place in these threads...
     

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