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Technical 302 Windsor or Cleveland?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Txkahuna, Mar 18, 2015.

  1. Txkahuna
    Joined: Apr 24, 2011
    Posts: 184

    Txkahuna
    Member
    from Texas

    Question:
    How can you tell the difference between a 302 Windsor and a Cleveland
    engine?
     
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 48,664

    squirrel
    Member

    The shape of the valve covers is a quick way, the Cleveland covers are "square" at the ends, the Windsor is tapered.

    Also the 302 looks kind of tiny compared to a 351C
     
    porknbeaner likes this.
  3. Yep easiest way to tell. This ^^^ is exactly what I would have told you.
     
  4. A few other differences.... The C intake manifold is 'dry' (no water passages), the upper radiator hose connects to the block not the manifold, the 'timing cover' is a flat sheet metal plate, the fuel pump mounting bolts are vertical on a C, horizontal on a W.
     
    JB_roadrage likes this.

  5. ahshoe
    Joined: Sep 12, 2012
    Posts: 808

    ahshoe
    Member

    Best way I tell is the fuel pump is bolted on with the two bolts being vertical and not horizontal like the 302 and 351W motors
     
  6. SicSpeed
    Joined: Apr 23, 2014
    Posts: 652

    SicSpeed
    Member
    from Idaho

    Timing chain housing is cast into the block on the Cleveland.
    302 (is not a Windsor) and 351W is a separate aluminum chain cover.
     
  7. 65COMET
    Joined: Apr 10, 2007
    Posts: 3,086

    65COMET
    Member

    302 is considered a Windsor,unless it is a BOSS 302,then it has "C" type heads!!! All the other traits are quick and easy to tell,even in a greasy old engine bay!! ROY.
     
  8. 351 Windsor looks like a 289/302.
     
    65COMET likes this.
  9. JB_roadrage
    Joined: Feb 25, 2011
    Posts: 372

    JB_roadrage
    Member
    from Caintuckee

    Easy way for a rookie to tell what engine family they are looking at is to count the valve cover bolts... so write this down and keep it with you..

    The Y blocks (239/256/272/292/312) have 2 bolts
    The FE blocks (332/352/360/361/390/391/406/410/427/428) have 5 bolts
    The Windors (289/302/351W) have 6 bolts..
    The 385 series (429/460) have 7 bolts..
    The 335 series (351C/351M/400) have 8 bolts
     
    ConceptVehicleDesign and 65COMET like this.
  10. What about the Australia Cleveland 302, it's a factory 302 and looks identical to a 351 :)
    It really should be called the "Geelong 302" but that's another story.
     
  11. ottoman
    Joined: May 4, 2008
    Posts: 305

    ottoman
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    I dont know.. I ran a automotive machine shop for many years and we never used "Windsor" until the 351 Windsor came out and never referred to a 260-302 by that name.... might depend on what part of the country your in or how the younger crowd does it.. guess it doesnt really matter what you call em.
     
  12. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    Hmmm...interesting. Never paid attention to this.

    There's a few oddities that might not fit the pattern, the most common being the Boss 302 is a 'Windsor'-architecture shortblock with Cleveland-architecture heads, but even that's a rare occurrence.

    Not too likely to encounter a Boss 429 or a Weslake smallblock head at a swap meet, so...
     
  13. SicSpeed
    Joined: Apr 23, 2014
    Posts: 652

    SicSpeed
    Member
    from Idaho

    Ford never referred to the 260,289,302 as a W engine
    They were cast in Cleveland and the Windsor designation
    wasn't used until the 351w.
    Yes it is an oversized 302 but carries the Windsor name on its own.
    Nomenclature is everything.
     
    indyjps likes this.
  14. If its a boss and you don't know fords well enough to recognize the Cleveland heads the best simple check is the *soft plugs, on a boss they are screw in not pressed in.

    *freeze plugs, core plugs or whatever other name you prefer.


    Names are important on the HAMB, as is cylinder count and other little idiosyncrasies. And what is actually said has no bearing on the beating. :rolleyes:

    I never heard a 260-302 called anything but either a small block ford or a 260,289,302 until Ford started selling it as a metric engine (5.0) this whole Windsor things is something for the Fox Body crowd.

    That said call it what you will most of us will either figure it out or ask and please help an old fart out once in a while, sometimes a question is just a question for Cry sake.

    Now Ford did market a hotted up 351 Cleveland for a while that we used to call a Cleveland Hamster.
    I don't know about the entire country but in a part of the country that I have lived in off and on all my life that was what it was called.

    That last tidbit was a side trip from the thread, no apologies and no charge. :D

    Damn this post is getting long :D

    Richie R,
    I am not familiar with this engine at all. its like a 351 C only its 302 inches? Cleveland block and all?

    School me friend.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  15. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,724

    RmK57
    Member

    The hotted up Cleveland was called a Boss 351, a one year only engine (71) and they also made lower compression version in (72) called a Cobra-jet or HO.
     
  16. mjlangley
    Joined: Dec 11, 2008
    Posts: 170

    mjlangley
    Member
    from SE MI

    Another easy and quick way to tell the difference between a 302 and 351C is that the 302's exhaust port flanges are at about a 45 deg. angle to the cylinder block deck (ala SBC) and the 351C's ports are at a right angle to the deck.

    The 351C is so much wider than other small blocks that the ports were angled down to provide better exhaust manifold clearance to the inner shock towers that most Ford's used...
     
  17. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,724

    RmK57
    Member

    Didn't BA performance used to make an intake manifold for a 302 headed Cleveland engine?
    From what I remember it was a single plane like a Victor.
     
  18. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,413

    George
    Member

    Keep the KISS principle in mind & this is the answer! C has a dry intake, the 302/35W has the thermostat in the intake. Forget trying to remember the # of intake bolts, valve cover bolts or if the F/P bolts are verticle or horizontal.

    The Aussie 302 C is simply a destroked 351 with a 3" stroke & rods lengthened to 6". Combustion chamber of the 302c heads was reduced so that 9:1 351 pistons would still give 9:1 in the 302 or the 351.
     
  19. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,413

    George
    Member

    also the heads have 351C-2V ports & 351C-4V valves...
     
  20. Yeah, there was a period there where it was all the rage to install Cleveland heads on Windsor blocks; there was a couple of 'conversion' intakes available IIRC, plus a few offerings of adaptor plates to use 'standard' Windsor intakes on these 'Clevor' hybrids. That's when the importation of the Australian heads became popular. Once the 'better' aluminum Windsor heads became available at affordable prices, these fell off in popularity.

    And if you live in NASCAR country, you could run into the Cup motors. Using Ford's race block, it's a 351W block with partial Cleveland architecture (deck height and crank journal diameter) and designed to use the Cleveland-based race heads.
     
    GreenMonster48 likes this.
  21. George thanks for the info. Now I have to add that to my list of must own and never haves. ;)

    Used to be a company in OK that made kits intake, head bolt conversion etc to build a Boss 302 type of engine, they called it a street boss as I recall. I have actually considered building one just because and had almost everything except intake at one point, but it had to go off to a new owner. I may start collecting parts again some day.
     
  22. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,413

    George
    Member

    This conversion is/was often refered to as "Clevors"!
     
  23. No offense intended but I never heard of a "clevor" until this millennium. Those were all 351s weren't they?
     
  24. No, that was one of the nicknames for these when they were popular and referred to any Cleveland head/Windsor block combo, 302 or 351. Most of them you saw were 302-based because of the 'cachet' attached to the Boss 302 at the time, but some 351 versions were built too.
     
  25. 351W has a taller deck. Intakes are not compatible IIRC
     
  26. There are intake spacers available to install 302 intakes on 351W motors due to the lack of anything other 1-4V intakes for the 351 (well, not quite; Price Motorsports offers a 2-4V lo-rise for the kit Cobra crowd, and there are 4 weber intakes available), so if you need 3-2s or a tunnel ram on a 351W, it can be done...
     
  27. Hmmmn I guess I just never heard the name. The only thing I ever heard the Boss 302 clone that I mentioned earlier was the street boss. Maybe its a mid west thing. One thing that we forget is that this whole hot rodding thing is regional to a point. maybe not as much now as it was when we were younger.

    By the way I appreciate the education here fellas.
     
  28. The 351W 'Clevors' were rare because at the time, 351C motors were still easy to find and you couldn't get a 4-bolt-mains block in the Windsor design. But the Cleveland has a poor oiling system (oiling the lifters first; the rod bearings were the last to get oil) and it was enough of a problem that the Pro Stock boys tried various 'fixes', including sleeving the lifter bores and/or running internal/external oil lines. When NASCAR made the switch to small-block, Ford finally addressed this with their 'hybrid' race block, basically a 351W block (with it's better oiling system) with 4-bolt-mains, and with the 351C deck height and main bearing sizes (the large 351W bearing had too much bearing surface speed).
     
  29. LOL I recently stumbled across a 4 page article that just addressed the oiling problems with the Clevland block. it was evidently something that I deemed important because it said save for wolf and was nestled in a box of papers that I got after my dad died. :)

    I'll bet it was something that I cabbaged when I still had the Cleveland Hamster in my '46. I'll have to dig that back out just incase anyone reads this thread ignores the oiling problems and digs out mom's old Mach 1 to rob the mill for their 55 chebby. :D :D

    hey Steve you would know this and excuse me for going off the reservation here, the hotted up motor in the '71 merc cyclone was just a Clevland motor? or was it merc specific?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  30. There were three 'Cyclone' models available in '70; the 'Cyclone' was Mercury's version of the Torino 'Cobra'; a stripper hardtop with a big motor. These came standard with a base 360 HP 429 4V, you could step up to the 429 'CJ or 'SCJ'' for extra bucks. Same as the Ford versions...

    The 'Cyclone GT' was a fancier model (more goop) but the base motor was only a 351C-2V. The 'Cyclone Spoiler' came with the 429 CJ standard, SCJ optional.

    There were even rumors and some paperwork to suggest that two Boss '9 Cyclones were built for somebody in NASCAR, but they've never surfaced.

    The '71s had the same three models, but the engine options changed. The Cyclone and Spoiler came with the 351 HO (same as the Mustang version), the GT still came with a 351C 2V motor as base. All could be optioned with a 429, but the CJ and SCJ versions were gone.

    In '70 the serious street racers went for the '70 1/2 'Falcon'. A mid-year replacement (and last appearance of the nameplate) for the '66-early '70 version, it was a stripped two-door post version of the Torino (came with rubber floormats as standard!). What was really interesting was you could get any Torino engine choice, up to and including the 429 SCJ. Only a handful were ordered. This was also the only year you could order a factory-installed V8-4V motor in a 'Falcon'.... :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015

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