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Technical 2nd flat cam lobe in 100 miles

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by birdman1, Jun 16, 2020.

  1. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,159

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    seb fontaba, Nobody said we didn't do the 20 min. break in dance and use the rite "lubes". We did, as all the other parts like pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump, etc. have to learn to live together also!
    If you want to see a break in machine do a google search, images or even video's!
     
  2. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,855

    sunbeam
    Member

    https://www.summitracing.com/search...-solid-lifters/part-type/lifters?fr=part-type
    Some companys Like Howards use a slot others like Crower use a hole in the face of the lifter [​IMG]
     
    JeffB2 likes this.
  3. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 921

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    This guy down the alley from me used to build some of the best running motors. He made this stand that connected a fan belt to the damper pulley and then to a 5 horse electric motor. This spun the motor over at around 3000 rpm. He used to run his motors all after noon, stopping and starting them while checking the rocker movement and oil pressures in different locations..
    I found out later on that the car manufactures did this too...

    If using hyd's (which I rarely do) I would only use real Johnson hyd lifters. Be careful there is another brand that has a similar name..

    Brake it in using Pennzoil straight 30 with GM EOS.. Only use the EOS once during a brake in, never run it in your crank case as a zinc additive, its too rough. https://www.google.com/search?q=gm+...2.69i57j0l7.8054j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  4. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 921

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    Wow Crower is one of the good brands..
     
  5. Ericnova72
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 379

    Ericnova72
    Member

    Johnson is good...Johnson/HyLift is the crummy one to stay away from.

    They can't put an oil hole in the bottom of a hydraulic lifter, or it will collapse since it would not be able to hold oil pressure in the lifter. Oil mod for Hydraulic lifters is a flat ground down the outside of the lifter, acts like a rotating sprinkler spray head. The rotating lifters all help each other by spraying the lobe on either side of themselves as well as their own.

    Another choice is a vertical groove from the oil band area of a lifter bore to out the bottom of the bore as a spray path in front of the lifter onto the lobe. Grooving the lifter bore, Comp Cams and a couple others make a tool for this.

    There are two Valvoline VR1 oils, Silver bottle and White bottle....only the silver bottle Race oil has the high zinc and phosphorus levels
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  6. cfmvw
    Joined: Aug 24, 2015
    Posts: 343

    cfmvw
    Member

    I remember seeing a lot of this in the air cooled Volkswagen scene. The Berg shop built a cam break-in machine, and recommended using a Penzoil racing oil for the first few hundred miles of running. A friend of mine was also carefully deburring the cam lobes, and it was generally recommended to run light springs for initial break-in before installing dual springs, and add a bottle of STP for the zinc additives at every oil change.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  7. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 1,764

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

    Take the cam that went bad and with a SHARP (like new) file see how easy it is to file the edge of one of the remaining lobes on the edge of the PEAK.... It should be rock hard.
    Let us know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    alanp561 likes this.
  8. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,681

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Bad advice. The amount of zinc in STP is less than regular passenger car motor oil, if it does anything at all it will dilute the zinc level.
     
    Truckdoctor Andy likes this.
  9. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 675

    finn
    Member

    That hole in the center of the lifter is ineffective and probably counterproductive. The hydrodynamic film pressure at the lifter to cam interface is tens of thousands of psi, so there is no way for the 60 psi gallery pressure to force oil through that hole against hydrodynamic film pressure.

    We tried that trick on a Diesel engine we had in production, probably forty years ago. Spent hundreds of dynamometer test hours trying to make the little hole work. Ended up with ceramic wafers on the lifter as a bandaid to make the cam and tappers live, and this was in the day of high zddp oil. Eventually roller followers were developed and tooled for high volume production. The rollers allowed more aggressive cam profiles for better performance, and vastly extended cam and tappet life. The rollers were essentially bulletproof.

    I’ve said this before, but my take is that the old standby flat tappet lifter manufacturer’s like Sealed Power / Johnson, Eaton, and Rochester Products are either out of the flat tappet business because no engine producer uses them in a high volume engine, or may have even disappeared as a manufacturer or corporate entity. That leaves the market to imports, rebrands, or small job shops.

    Couple that with the faster lift curves of even “mild” cams today, higher spring pressures, and resultant higher hertz stresses at the lobe/lifter interface, and you get a lot of failures.
     
    ekimneirbo likes this.
  10. doyoulikesleds
    Joined: Jul 12, 2014
    Posts: 255

    doyoulikesleds

    Ok do I have this right the engine was rerung and put in your car you and you lost a cam lobe. Then you drained the oil changed the filter and instaled a new cam lifters and springs and lost another lobe.
     
    Desoto291Hemi, lippy and big duece like this.
  11. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,476

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    Nobody said you did do the 20 min break in in the engine, your post #23; you just said you put the lifters in the right place. I googled and found this http://www.camresearchcorp.com/camking/ I made my opinion, others can make their own..
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  12. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,159

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    seb, Yep, That's the Ford cam guy's we used, they have a great reputation in the Ford racing & non racing community. They only do Fords wish there were a Chevy cam dealer that had same machine! ………………………………………….
     
  13. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 3,474

    Budget36
    Member

    I'd bet a burger Pete1 knows what he's talkig about.

    Will bet fries and a coke he has a hardness tester as well.

    Will bet the tip on the meal if he has seen 2 or 3 cams in his day.
     
  14. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 911

    birdman1

    I called Johnson lifter company and talked to the guy who owns the company. He no longer makes flat tappet lifters. Only roller lifters. He was really interesting to talk to. His reasoning for no longer making flat lifters is the foundries are not using the proper metals like chromium and nickel among others in the castings.of course he would like to sell me a set of roller lifters, but he was very convincing. Just so many of you have such different experience s that you have shared, makes me really consider the roller cam as the best way to go. Just so you know, I have used Elgin cams before and had very good service from them. And I did notice that the cam I used with the 204 and 214 duration, was listed by several manufacturers, at very different prices..
     
    ekimneirbo likes this.
  15. From their website (look at the bottom):

    liftrs.jpg
     
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  16. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,855

    sunbeam
    Member

    So we are talking solid lifters with valve lash so when the lifter is on the base circle there should be oil flowing through the hole.
     
    seb fontana likes this.
  17. paul philliup
    Joined: Oct 3, 2013
    Posts: 181

    paul philliup
    Member
    from ohio

    You all know Detroit went to roller lifters for a reason. Get a roller problem solved.
     
    ekimneirbo and big duece like this.
  18. I don’t mean to piss on your foot and tell you it’s raining, but..... Detroit went to rollers for several reasons, but because they couldn’t get good quality parts isn’t one of them. Fuel economy and emissions reduction are at the top of their list.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  19. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 1,764

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

    "there is no way for the 60 psi gallery pressure to force oil through that hole against hydrodynamic film pressure."

    That is not the idea. Gallery merely delivers the oil and then hydrodynamic takes over. Metal compatibility in this type of application is more important. Sometimes there just isn't any metal combination available that will work with the design lift figures the engineer wants. Cummins found this out and went to rollers. Even then it took years to get the design right so the injector lobes didn't break up.
    John Deere tried what you did and gave up and went to a carbide face lifter for one of their engine models.
    For race engines we drill the cam lengthwise with an oil delivery hole on each lobe at the start of the lift ramp.
    Cam or lifter failure is non existent for us and we run acceleration over .012.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
    Elcohaulic and Budget36 like this.
  20. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 911

    birdman1

    I like the idea of the oil passages in the camshaft that feeds the lobes. Didn't ford use that in the 2300 ohc engine?
     
  21. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 911

    birdman1

    The guy really was a good list. He told me his company was first and the other johnson company is bogus.
     
  22. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 1,764

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

    Yes.
     
  23. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 4,607

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    This isn't a ford vs chevy deal. Contrary to popular belief. Some stuff is junk, some isn't. Some people assemble things correctly some don't. Some break things in correctly, some don't. You cannot diagnose who did what or what company makes good products on a message board. Shit happens. Sheesh. Lippy
     
  24. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 921

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    Pontiacs seem to have issues with retro roller set ups were Chevys seem to run great with them..
     
  25. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 911

    birdman1

    whant to give an update about the 351 cleveland cam issue. I did buy a new Howard's flat tappet hydraulic cam and their lifters to go with it. i actually took the time to drain the oil and then refilled with fresh oil before i took the flat cam out. including the filter. I spun the oil pump with the new oil and filter in the engine until I had nice clean oil coming out the rockers. I then drained that oil(lawnmower), and took the lod cam and lifters out. i coated the cam journals with Howars lube, and filled the crankcase with Royal Purple b synthetic breakin oil and a can ot howards zinc additive. started right off and ran at 3000 for 10 minutes, then varying RPM for another 15 miutes, then I took it for a few 10 miles drives before draining the Royal Purple out. Put in VR1 20w50 and another can of Howards zinc additive. I have driven it abot 50 miles now, and everything looks good. Just to be clear, the Howards tech rep said I could run the breakin oil 500 to 2000 miles before changing. this cam is a little more lift (.515) and duration than the one that went flat. Now I can drive my "bird and enjoy it instead of working on it all the time. thanks for your help and advice. IMG_20191220_115315342.jpg
     
  26. Thanks for the update and I’m happy that it has worked out. Nice looking Thunderbird


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  27. just where do you think the metal that was worn off the flat cam went? It wasnt in the oil you drained
     
    CNC-Dude likes this.
  28. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,476

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

  29. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,476

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    In the lawnmower!
     
    Old wolf likes this.
  30. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,355

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Doesn't give a shit about the lawnmower either !
     
    Old wolf and warhorseracing like this.

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