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Projects 29 Tudor banger build

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 12secvx, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Well I picked up this fairly solid 29 Tudor sedan this last summer and I have been slowly collecting parts to start my Prewar banger powered build.
    When I first got it. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450654779.956302.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450654799.548788.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450654815.638235.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450654833.830414.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450654846.053823.jpg
     
  2. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Well I drove it around most of the summer it was burning a lot of oil so I tore it down. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655059.541708.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655072.300974.jpg
     
  3. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Got the block apart, cleaned, blasted and spot checked for cracks found a couple small cracks in the center 2 exhaust seats. :-/ ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655219.036504.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655228.207558.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655247.231454.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655256.205276.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450655278.547633.jpg
     
  4. keywestjack
    Joined: Jul 14, 2013
    Posts: 89

    keywestjack
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Pittsburgh

    I will look great!!!
     
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  5. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 1,922

    flatford39
    Member

    You really should have it magnafluxed before you go any further. If the cracks are just in the seats than I would recommend replacing with hardened seats.
     
  6. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    That is the plan I just like to do a couple checks of my own before I waste the time and money on even getting it fluxed. The plan is getting it machined for insert bearings and have a B crank turned down to size and hardened seats installed. It is .060 over and I got a nice set of .080 Pistons. I also have Snyder's new insert rods as well. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450656780.789672.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
  7. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

  8. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Some of the parts I have been collecting for my build. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450670951.694149.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450670972.383793.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450670992.149184.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450671003.333354.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450671038.383438.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450671086.657342.jpg
     
  9. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,041

    waxhead
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from West Oz

    Great looking tudor, and a nice collection of parts also. Will be watching. Hopefully only hardened seats are required. Good luck.
     
  10. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,346

    mike bowling
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    BANGER-POWER!----- Gotta love it!
     
  11. höllenteufel
    Joined: Jul 16, 2014
    Posts: 64

    höllenteufel
    Member

    Nice! Cool to see another banger build.
     
  12. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,467

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

    Big fan of bangers. We got to stick together! Subscribed.
     
  13. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    I'm still debating if I should go with dual 81's or a single 97. I have the carbs for either and I'm on the hunt for a manifold for either. Jim B. Has my B cam for a 1R re grind and since I'm staying with insert dipper rod it will be limited to around 3,500 RPM. So I guess my debate with myself is does a single 97 flow enough to support 3,500 rpm or should I just go with dual 81's and know there is enough and still some room for improvements.
     
  14. Bader2
    Joined: May 19, 2014
    Posts: 1,136

    Bader2

    Or,go with three deuce manifold,then you have the option of one or two without changing manifolds. Just a block off plate under the carb,and plug the fuel line,still looks like a 3deuce.
     
  15. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 7,390

    manyolcars

    When you are done, I will race you. :) Traditionally, hotrods have always used newer parts and technology such as insert bearings. I am running SU carburetors because I believe they are the best carburetors ever.
    I made the stainless manifold and added Pertronix, a fully synchronized transmission, and a high compression head. Its been working well for years su carbs.jpg
     
  16. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    I agree I like the look of vintage hot rod parts and the reliability of modern engine technology... Insert bearings, modern valve train, oil pressure and filtered oil. But I guess still keep the look of a vintage hot rod. Hope it all works as I am plan.
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  17. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 20,176

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

  18. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    I forgot about my drivetrain parts. I have a lightened flywheel w/ 9" clutch and B case and 40's V8 transmission for the good gears and syncro's. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450747239.520397.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450747260.363156.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1450747487.676916.jpg
    And the shift tower for the swap as well. I just need to blast it all and put it together.
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  19. 5280A2
    Joined: Sep 8, 2014
    Posts: 84

    5280A2

    You'll need a Model B oil pan to blend the A block with the B flywheel housing and transmission case. To mount the B pan you need a filler piece to match the smaller radius where the pan meets up with the rear main cap. I welded a strip in my pan as shown below. You also need to add a pair of holes near the rear corner of the block in the pan rail to match the B pan's bolt pattern. Be sure to plug the unused holes in the rear main bulkhead; they will leak oil into the flywheel housing if they aren't plugged. I cut off bolts and slotted them so I could run them in with sealant and a screwdriver. You will also need to build or buy rear mounts to adapt the B flywheel housing to your A frame. I made mine from some large angle iron and V8 biscuits.

    Bpan.40.jpg

    Panrail.40.jpg
    IMG_2508.25.jpg
     
    2935ford likes this.
  20. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,041

    waxhead
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from West Oz

    From what I understand, a single 97 is more than adequate.
     
  21. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,467

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

    I am Planning on running a single 97. I am at 6000 feet elevation and may even do better with a single 81. I will have to get it together and see what works best for me.
     
    yruhot likes this.
  22. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Thanks for sharing the pics 5280A2. I was planning on making the rear transmission mounts like you did which is why I got a 32 flywheel housing. Did you make the frame side bracket as well? Do you happen to have any other pics or it?
     
  23. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    I have been told a single 97 will be easier to dial in the idle but that dual 81's will give more top end. But I have no experience with either so it will be trial and error.
     
  24. Single 97 will be more than adequate.
     
  25. 5280A2
    Joined: Sep 8, 2014
    Posts: 84

    5280A2

    The frame brackets are made from the same size angle and bolt to the frame the same way the stock mounts do. I started out with 3/8 x 3-1/2 x 6 inch angle I found at a local steel supplier's scrap pile. There's a Model A rubber cushion between the bracket and frame on the inside of the rail, and a Model A rubber cushion and stock flat plate on the outside of the rail. I don't have any dimensions, but the photos below might help you figure out how to mock up and make your own brackets. I did mine with a bare block and the B flywheel housing with the front of the block located by the stock A front mount. You can see that the rear mounts are biased toward the rear of the car. I ended up needing to notch the driver side mount (angle cut) to get enough travel out of my clutch pedal.

    frame mount.40.jpg

    IMG_2509.25.jpg

    That's me smiling in the photo in spite of being in the process of reinstalling my motor for the third time in three years with its third crankshaft!
     
  26. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Thanks those pics help a ton. Why so many crankshaft failures? Are you using a turned B crank or Burlington? Babbitt or inserts?
     
  27. 5280A2
    Joined: Sep 8, 2014
    Posts: 84

    5280A2

    Long story short, I think too much spark advance killed the first two crankshafts. When I was replacing the second Model A crank with a new Burlington crank I also changed my distributor to limit the maximum advance to 24 degrees. That has allowed the current setup to survive since June of 2012 where each of the two prior builds lasted about 800 miles and one hillclimb race before expiring. The car was built to run at the F.A.S.T. hillclimb in Northwood, Iowa, and evolved quite a bit based on the failures along the way.

    The first version was a rebuilt, but never run, stock Model A engine that I got with a 1928 roadster project car I bought. It had been sitting unused when I decided to build a car to race at Northwood. I pulled the engine apart and added weld-on counterweights to the crankshaft before balancing and reassembling with a used Model B cam, a lightened flywheel, a repro Winfield head, and a Zephyr manifold with two Holley 94's. The bottom end is pictured below; it had babbit mains and stock rods with babbit. Note that the 1928 crankshafts have narrow webs and are sometimes called "beavertail" crankshafts due to the shape of the webs. This crank ultimately broke at the rear of the number 3 rod journal.

    Version1.40.jpg
    Crankshaft1.40.jpg

    When the first crank failed I assumed that it was cracked or that the early design simply couldn't take the stress of the level of modifications I was running. So, for version two I searched for the best Model A crank I could find and did a thorough prep job magnafluxing, counterweighting, regrinding, and balancing the replacement crank. Since only one rod was damaged, I replaced it with another stock A rod with babbit, and left the babbit mains in place. The bearings showed no signs of damage so I was not concerned about running babbit in a modified motor. The crank grinder did a super job and gave me the large radius on the journals that I requested, so I was confident that version two was going to get the job done. Because I had already raced two years and wanted to go faster, I ported the intakes, added oversize intake valves, and secured a Brierly cam as part of the second build. You can see how much beefier the later A cranks are in the version two photo below.

    Version2.40.jpg

    One thing I noticed while driving the first two versions was that they would pull real hard up to a certain point and then would start to feel like the motor was fighting itself. I did not realize it at the time, but I believe that those were symptoms of too much advance, and that the engine was firing far enough ahead of TDC to be working against itself. When the second crank broke at the end of the first year I was running it, it had done a lot more damage than the first failure did. I think the skinny crank absorbed more of the twisting forces and didn't damage the bearings much, but the second crank, being stiffer, transferred more of the forces to the main bearings before failing. By the time the crank broke it had pretty much destroyed the front main, to the point where the crank pulley had damage from hitting the timing cover, and the water pump casting was broken. I don't have any pictures of that failure, but the crank broke at the number 4 rod journal that time.

    While I was obviously disappointed, I was also deeply hooked on a modified Model A by that point, so once again I evaluated what I had, and what I should do to fix the little monster. After two stock cranks failed it was easy to decide on a Burlington crank for what I hoped would be the final rebuild. While it would have been possible to align bore the damaged main bearings to fit the standard size journals on the Burlington crank, I ultimately decided to replace the babbit with inserts, add billet steel main caps, purchase new forged rods from Skokie, IL, and plumb the mains for pressure oiling. I made a conscious decision not to drill the crank for full pressure; I don't think a Model A journal is big enough to get away with it. I new from running in Northwood that 4200 rpm's was the fastest I could turn it, so I believe the splash oiling on the rods is adequate for most of the use it gets. When I put it together the third (and hopefully final) time I took some more weight off the flywheel and converted to a V8 clutch. The whole rotating assembly was again balanced prior to putting the whole thing together yet again. The bottom end and plumbing for the pressure mains are pictured below. I have four driving seasons on it now, and with the limits on advance, it seems to be up to the use (and abuse) I am subjecting it to.

    Version3.40.jpg

    oilgallery.40.jpg

    I also have a Model B motor that is nearly identical to the A in terms of modifications. That one is also babbit mains and rods, so hopefully the learning curve with the A motor will allow me to get by without problems when I finally get the B motor into a car.
     
  28. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Thanks for you story I hope I and others can unfortunately learn from your mishaps. I like the way you plumbed for your pressure main how is the pressure relief setup. And are you getting pressure off the outside bolt/port? And I see you don't run a return tube?.
     
  29. 5280A2
    Joined: Sep 8, 2014
    Posts: 84

    5280A2

    The brass valve between the 3 and 4 intake valves is a 25 psi pressure relief valve threaded into the main oil manifold. The original passage from the oil pump to the valve chamber is plugged and the top of the oil pump is modified so that all of the oil discharged from the pump exits the block on the side. That fitting has been enlarged from 1/8" pipe thread to 3/8" pipe thread to maximize flow to a remote oil filter adapter that mounts to a bracket on the valve cover. After filtration the oil is routed back to the fitting that protrudes from the manifold inside the valve chamber. There is also a small pressure line from the filter to a fitting above the cam gear that has a 1/8" hole to meter oil constantly to keep the dipper tray full for the rods. When the system hits 25 psi, the relief valve opens and the excess oil bleeds off into the valve chamber. The floor of the valve chamber has been drilled with two 3/4" holes to allow the oil to immediately drain back to the dipper tray below. If you examine a B block these holes are present; that's why there's no exterior oil return tube. The system maintains about 6-8 lbs. of pressure at idle and holds steady at 25 lbs. once the relief valve opens. The design is pretty much a direct copy of how the Model B works, with the addition of the filter and relief valve. In the photo the tube to the timing gear is not bent and connected, and there's a small fitting where the line connects at the bottom of the valve chamber for the oil pressure gauge.

    Plumbing.40.jpg
     
    bali-rod, burl and volvobrynk like this.
  30. 12secvx
    Joined: Sep 17, 2015
    Posts: 45

    12secvx

    Thanks for the pictures and info I'm trying to get a plan on mine as I plan of pressurizing oil to all the mains as well. I have one of the oil filter made valve covers that is designed to take oil off the factory main supply passage and just dump oil back into the valve chamber. Does anyone one have any pics of oil pressure systems using one of these?
     

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