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Projects '26 Model T build.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by xrw urabus, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Hi guys, Not much Car related to report. I'm still prepping to move to my new place. The bulk of the remodeling work is done, so I should be moving in the next week or two. But the Model T already made the trip to the new place. (Not under it's own power :(, but we did push it down the hill to the garage I got to "Drive" it....Brakes need adjusted A lot!) Hopefully this drought of updates is close to ending but...Who knows what new problems I'll find once I start living in the new place.

    [​IMG]
    Till next Time!
    CBB
     
  2. Looking forward to updates about the Model T and the new garage.
     
  3. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Quick update. We haven't done much with the old girl that is photo worthy. We have been trying to get her started since we switched over to the Distributor. No luck so far. We're not getting spark at the plugs. Not sure if it's just a bad coil or something else. Here's the setup in case someone else can shed some light on things.
    We're trying to run on just a battery (Alternator is not wired in yet). We set the #1 cylinder to fire TDC (per the directions that came with the Texas T distrib (Step13A) http://www.texastparts.com/mm5/manuals/T3161.pdf
    With a meter between the Condenser and Ground the meter reads open at this point. But moving the distb left or right a bit reads a closed circuit.
    With it all hooked up we would expect to see a spark at the same point (using a spark plug tester). But not so. I've tried rotating the crank around by hand. The Coil does get warm.
    I know I need to double check the point gap but even if it's off a little bit I would expect to see a spark.
    We have double checked the Grounds, added extra Ground wires just be sure. Electrically the ground is good.

    Any Ideas?

    I am working on making up some new parts for the lights. If it all works out it will be the highest tech way of making an old part ... but that will have to wait till I get the last of my replacement part for my fabrication machine. There will be pictures and maybe videos with this. But It's not ready yet.

    Thanks,
    CBB
     
  4. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    Are you getting 12v to the coil? Do you have proper resistance on the coil? Do you have a ceramic 1.5 ohm resister on the incoming power lead to the coil?

    ....to me, it sounds like the coil isn't firing.
     
  5. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    According to texas t their coil doesn't need an external resistor. The coil was what I was thinking just thought I'd post it up here before I grab a new 12v coil.
     
  6. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    I never ran their coil. I ran a standard 12v 1.5 ohm coil and a 1.5 ohm resistor
     
  7. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Tried a new 3.2ohm Coil..... Still no Spark. When back through the setup @ TDC on #1 cylinder the points close. This is with the spark advance lever all the way down. If you move it to half way up (#1@TDC ) there is a 0.015" gap on the points. Triple checked all the Grounds (the longest had less than 1 ohm).
    I think I'm going to stop by the local part store and get a new set of plug wires and a new cap. The Wires will not be the proper looking wires but they will help us with troubleshooting. If that fixes it I can order another set of proper wires the next I order T parts.
    Any Ideas welcome.
    CBB
     
  8. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    FYI, those engines don't like modern, graphite core spark wire. They need to be braided copper core wire...the old school stuff. I believe the graphite stuff has way different resistance properties that these cars were not designed to use.

    I tried to use graphite core wire on my T.....wouldn't run until made new ones with the right stuff. Restoration Supply sells it by the foot pretty cheap with the old cloth covering in a variety of colors.
     
  9. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    Hello Everyone,
    I think I figured it out. Bruce and I outsmarted ourselves, I am pretty sure we have the coil wired incorrectly. My guess is by the time I get to Bruce's place on Thursday it will already be running.
    Thanks,
    Jim
     
  10. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    Fingers crossed! :)
     
  11. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    So here's a Quick Update... Jim was right I over thought it and had the coil wired up incorrectly. So now we have spark. But still no fire. The spark is very timid and borders on yellow instead of blue. So I've ordered some new 7mm copper spark plug wire, some better distributor ends and terminals for the spark plugs. We are not happy with the distributor ends that came with the Texas T kit. While they are the correct "style" for the time period....They like to stay in the distributor when the wires are removed, Pretty sure they are not making good contact. We're also going to clear up are grounding connections we painted everything well so we may not be getting a solid enough connection.
    The new wires should be in this week, and their calling for rain most of the week.... so I think we'll get them in place and see the old girl run again (fingers crossed) soon.

    CBB
     
    MrModelT likes this.
  12. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Last night one of Jim's friends Dave dropped by, He is an expert on Distributors. He found the mistake (not rotated far enough). We got lizzy started and she ran wonderfully.
    I missed the start the first time cause she lite off on the first try. But I did get some footage of a start after we pushed it out side.
    Enjoy!


    CBB
     
    kidcampbell71, Tim and MrModelT like this.
  13. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    YES! :D Well done boys! Now.....when are you guys getting it loaded up for the trip out here to Pismo CA for TROG?

    ;)
     
    Crazybillybob likes this.
  14. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    Just a quick question.

    My "rod knock" ears noticed a knock in the video during the second half when you guys have it outside.

    It might be nothing....but it sounds oftly like a lifter out of adjustment or a loose rod cap.

    I would drop the inspection cover and check the rods. If they are new bearings, we don't want any damage.

    Plasti-guage them all at .001"-.002" or the old fashion way:

    Moves by hand= too loose
    Won't move when tapped with a hammer=Too tight

    Moves with 3-5 hits of a light hammer= just right.

    Safty wire your rod caps too!
     
  15. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    Also, check your lifter to valve clearance.
     
  16. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    Thanks for the knock info. That noise bothered me also. I just have not heard enough Model T's to determine if it was problematic or not.
     
  17. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    It's definitely not right XRW Urabus. I have heard plenty of Ts fresh and worn....and that does not sound good.

    Like I said it could be lifters to valve clearance....or more likely, a loose rod cap.

    Either way.....don't run it again until you figure it out and check those.
     
  18. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    The best lifter clearance is .018". You can go as low as .010" and and high as .032".

    All ours are set at .018".
     
  19. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    After watching the video again.....it's rods, I know it is.
     
  20. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Clayton,
    The odd thing about the noise is that when you gave it just a little more throttle it went away. Normally with a lifter or rod that would make it get louder so the thought was maybe it just a vibration. But it's safer to drop the cover and check the caps again..and the inspection cover leaks a little so we can fix that while we're at it.

    CBB
     
  21. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    You may just be hitting a harmonic "sweet spot" at that point.

    Even if it's not rods (would be surprised if it's not)....it's still noticeable and isn't good.
     
  22. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Quick update. I was able to drop the inspection plate and check out the rod caps. Found the #1 cylinder cap was loose enough to move around with 2 fingers and the #3 cylinder cap moved a little by hand. I'm out of plastigauge so I'll pick some up and reset the shims this week. I guess the moral of the story is when you rebuild an engine and check the cap clearance with the motor upside down.... recheck it after you flip it over.
    CBB

    (Thanks Clayton for pointing out what we all heard and letting us know there was a problem now before any real damage happened.)
     
    Tim and MrModelT like this.
  23. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,620

    MrModelT
    Member

    Good work! I'm just glad we caught it before anything got damaged.

    Its always comforting to find an obvious problem with an easy fix that saves the day!

    Glad I could help! :)
     
  24. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    I got the caps so the gap gauges right with plastigauge. But the crank now sticks when you turn it over by hand and the starter has a hard time turning it over. Of Course I didn't find this out till after I sealed the pan back up and filled her full of Oil. Oh well! I've ordered some Yellow Time saver lapping powder so getting the Babbitt bearings back to round shouldn't be too bad of a process once I get the pan off again. I've also almost wrapped up my other special project for this car and Can Start posting it soon to fill in the long dead-spaces between actual "Work" on the car. No excesses for the lack of updates ... Just Lazy! The engine issue sorta took the wind out of my sails for a bit. I'm going to see if I can get back at this more now.

    CBB
     
  25. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    After what feels like forever Laying like this
    [​IMG]

    Staring and adjusting this
    [​IMG]
    Feeling like this
    [​IMG]
    I was able to put this back in place
    [​IMG]
    Fill her with Oil and Give it a test fire.


    Here's the sound of the Exhaust.


    After it ran for a little bit we think we heard something. It seems to be toward the front of the motor, and easier to hear on the drivers side. But at this point we're gun shy so we want all the Hamb Model T / 4 Banger experts to listen to this clip and let us know what you Think. Do I drop the pan and try and rework the gap more? or is it good to go and we're just sissy's?

    Let us know what you think!
    CBB
     
    Ron Funkhouser and kidcampbell71 like this.
  26. Late to the Party
    Joined: Nov 16, 2015
    Posts: 815

    Late to the Party
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Back on June 7th you said this. I assume you mean the crank sticks at some points in its revolution, not all the time. If this is the case, it sounds like your journals are out of round. Did you mike them to check for roundness? If they are .001" out of round, your babbit won't last long. I know .001" sounds like very little, but when you're shooting for .0015" clearance, .001" is a lot of difference.

    If, however, you meant that the crank sticks all the way around, then your clearance is too tight and Time Saver should help. But it's a lot of work to turn your engine enough for the Time Saver to do its job after the engine is in the car.

    Some other things which sound like a loose rod: loose pulley on the crankshaft, fore-aft play of the camshaft, and a twisted rod. And as Clayton mentioned, a very loose lifter. Ford specified .025", but they're a little noisy at that setting. Clayton uses .018" on all his lifters, which is fine. But of course all of us Model T guys do things our own way. I use .012" on intakes and .015" on exhaust. The lifter setting is easy to check and easy to change if you have adjustable lifters, not so easy with solid ones. The crank pulley is easy to check and easy to fix by using an aftermarket pulley. Camshaft play is a little harder to fix, but it can be done without pulling the engine. You can add shims inside the timing cover. A twisted rod is more trouble to diagnose and to fix. I'd suggest starting with the easy ones first, then move to the harder ones if the easy ones don't eliminate the knock. Cool ride, BTW.
     
  27. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    We did measure the Crank when we pulled the engine apart. and didn't find any journals that were out of round. Now I will admit that when we did that we were very new to precision measurements and I don't remember what we used to measure it. The more I think about the measurements may have been done with a set of calipers. Which I know now doesn't give the proper precision needed for this type of work. I'm going to start looking at the easy stuff first. If the pan comes off again the Crank will get rechecked, and a couple of the rod bolts will get replaced just because they gave me trouble going back together. (they kept wanting to spin 1/3 to 1/2 a turn.). If anyone else has any advice or wants to add to, amend Late's advise bring it on.... I'm guessing at this point!
    CBB
     
  28. Gary Addcox
    Joined: Aug 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,009

    Gary Addcox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    PLEASE consider what BSA RoadRocket is declaring ! If you chop it, it is no longer a tall T, and that one consideration is what sets the Tin Lizzie apart from everything else. You(one) destroys the character of the car when the top gets lowered. Talk to 50 rodders; they will all agree with BSA and me, IF they are real, died-in-the-wool car freaks. Think about this. Once upon a time there was a super fabricator in CA by the name of Lil John Buttera. He built dragster frames for winners and chassis for streetrodders and hotrodders, including himself. He assembled two Tall T sedans, one for his wife and one for himself. His was a traditional rod with Ford 9", dropped I-beam, small V-8. His wife's was sprung with IRS and IFS and the latest in fancy shit. NEITHER WAS CHOPPED, and both garnered mucho attention when driven, in part because of the obvious TALL TOP. Please think about what you are planning to do. One more bitch; the Tall Top of the Model T is the most distinguishable feature of any old car, PERIOD ! It will no longer be a Tall T. Rant over.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
    sharpmark likes this.
  29. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 297

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Gary,
    We will not be chopping the T. The tall T look is what we wanted. It's safe. The motor issues are what is plaguing us now.

    CBB
     
  30. 29pu
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 159

    29pu
    Member

    It maybe be my eyes but in the video of it running it kinda of looks like the crank pulleys wobbling a bit. Mine did that and I took it off and hammered a 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 (can't remember which) 12 point socket over stub. Had to tap it on after I did that. Also might want to check that the oil pan snout is tight in the front engine mount. If its loose it will knock also.
     

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