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Projects '26 Model T build.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by xrw urabus, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. chuxx
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 208

    chuxx
    Member

    You feeling better?


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  2. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Chuxx,
    I am feeling better. About the time I got over everything the weather got crappy here.


    So over the weekend we bundled up and headed into the shop. We were hoping to assemble the aux trans and move forward. But on closed inspection we found a couple hairline cracks. So we did the right thing and Veed them out.
    [​IMG]

    After the aluminum was clean we broke out the torch and filled it back in.

    [​IMG]


    The cracks were very small and didn't look like they would have compromised the case strength, but we didn't want it to leak or change issues in the future.

    After all the torch work the case was too hot to do anything with (and we couldn't feel our toes anymore), and we need to spend some time de-goose turding the patches. The forecast looks better for this coming weekend so hopefully we'll get the case cleaned up. We're toying with the Idea of sealing the inside of the case with a coat of gas tank liner. As we were shocked by how much oil weeped out of the Aluminum as we heated it to repair things. Any body have any thoughts on this?

    CBB
     
  3. You might consider something like glyptal to paint the inside or outside of the aux. trans. It brushes on and seals the metal. I've used it on transmissions and third members. I believe I got mine from Eastwood.
     
  4. Webasto made their first folding fabric roof in 1932;

    [​IMG]
     
  5. I love what your doing with your T.. Way cool!!
     
  6. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Sorry Guys No Progress this weekend.

    I spent too much Time Driving through this.
    [​IMG]
    (I felt like I should be delivering presents or something :D)


    Also I think I might have spotted something Odd in the Shop... What in the heck is Jim Doing now? :eek:

    [​IMG]

    Maybe Jim will get to more of that in a little bit, if we can get him to post again. :rolleyes:

    CBB
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  7. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    That looks like a flathead 8ba in front of a Model T? I hope it is used to help a good koz.
    Figure that one out!

    See, I can post.
    Jim
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  8. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    It's been quiet here for a few weeks. That's because it's been COLD here. We also have had somethings that have come up (look for a new thread on that soon).

    But we've been moving forward with getting the Aux Trans cleaned up. At last time we looked there were goose turds hanging on the sides of the trans. After a goodly bit of filing the turds were gone.
    [​IMG]

    The brazing process had pulled a lot of trapped oil out of the aluminum and on to the surface of the Trans. This then burnt and discolored the casing in many places. So the next step was a short trip through the bead blast cabinet. A few tough spots were cleaned up with a rotatory tool and stainless wire wheel.
    Then the whole thing was cleaned with denatured Alcohol, till the coffee filters came up clean. Then the mating surfaces were masked off in prep for a couple of coats of paint.
    [​IMG]

    Three coats of VHT engine paint (cast aluminum color) were applied to the casing.
    [​IMG]

    Well that looks right pretty and even...but it's missing something.

    A little Ford Blue will make that look better.
    [​IMG]

    Perfect!

    With the Casing dressed nice and ready for the ball we're hoping that we can get the Aux Trans reassembled and back in the car this weekend (that means the Engine and Drive shaft Too) With all the seals in place. That will be one big step closer to hearing her run for the first time...in 30+ years (ever for us).

    Once we get to that point we can get that Flathead ready to slip into the frame :eek:.... What can't sort out what's going on from the posts above?... Post a comment let us know what you think.

    CBB
     
  9. daddio211
    Joined: Aug 26, 2008
    Posts: 5,996

    daddio211
    Member

  10. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,657

    MrModelT
    Member

    Very nice guys! Remeber to get the right amount and/or thickness of shims for the countershaft caps. You don't want the races to be too tight or too loose on the bearings.

    Did it have shims?

    I'm not sure what your hinting at with the 8BA.......but it better not find it's way in that T :what:

    Nice work as always! :D

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  11. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Shims? we don't need no stinking shims!
    We figured out the first time we tried to put it back together that we needed something other then RTV to keep everything moving free. There were thickish seals instead of shims. We were going to make some new seals to fill in the gap. A little RTV will be applied to make sure it doesn't leak.

    as for the 8BA... we'll get to that all in good time.:D

    CBB
     
  12. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,657

    MrModelT
    Member

    Excellent. Make sure to reproduce the original shims exactly....those caps and bearings are super sensitive. As for RTV....I use Permatex "The Right Stuff". It makes a good strong seal and doesn't leak......ever. everything on my engine is sealed with it.

    ....That 8BA had better be going in another cool project....that's all I'm sayin'...;)

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  13. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Clayton... the gaskets or "shims" that were on this trans if you rubber the grease stains off I think you would find Corn Flakes or Rice Crispy's on them. They were just some homemade heavy paper/light card gaskets.
    We used cork this time... but it maybe to thick. There is ever so slightly a bit of end to end play in the jack shaft. So I may swap the cork out for some gray rubber gasket material we have in the shop.

    So the last time we tried to put the Aux trans back together you'll remember that I put the Jack shaft in backwards...:(
    That meant that it was Jim's turn to put it together. Took about an hour to make gaskets, cover them in some permatex. Insert the Jack shaft and get everything tight.... Then the upper shaft wouldn't go in correctly. Upon inspection That's right Jim installed the jack shaft backwards too! :eek:

    [​IMG]

    At this point we were out of time.. (spent most of the day getting the tire on my OT daily fixed after it was eaten by a pothole on the way to the shop).

    So at this point we're hoping that the third time really is a charm. The upside is that now I need to change out those gaskets...

    CBB
     
  14. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    I put the AUX trans back together last night with the gear shaft in correctly. No gremlins in the shop this time! I put paint marks on the correct side of the shaft and marked the case, just to be sure. I hope I never see that gear out of the case again.:mad:
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  15. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    We were able to get into the Shop one night this week for a few a couple hours.
    With the Aux trans going back together we needed to get the shifter cleaned up and ready to go back on it. One of the ears that bolts holds the shifter assembly onto the top of the aux trans was broken off when we got it. (insert picture that I forgot to take here..:confused:)

    We've had such good luck with the Aluminum braze that we decided to rebuild the whole ear with it. The Ear are was wire wheeled clean. Then the damaged are ground with the rotary tool This was to make sure all the oxide and oils were removed. The Surface was not ground smooth. We also drilled a couple small insets into the aluminum to help give the filler some places to bit. A little form out of sheet steel to match the other corners was made up. Then we lite up the torch and fill the form.

    [​IMG]

    The whole thing was left to cool over night. Once it cools we'll start the clean up process and drill the mounting hole back in it.

    Have a Great weekend...
    CBB
     
  16. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    We had a nice weekend! and we got some work done on the Car. It doesn't look like much but it took some time. With all of the mistakes and redo's we got the Aux Trans back into the Car. Along with it we have the whole drive line sealed up. We still need to pin the Drive shaft (it's drilled just didn't have a pin).
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    We have ran into on snag. It seems that we've lowered the car so much that the Engine/Aux Trans keep the Brake rod from moving the full length on a stroke.
    Here's a look at the problem.
    [​IMG]

    We're thinking about remaking the brake rod with a larger arch to clear everything nicely. But we're open to suggestions if someone else has ran into this issue before.

    That's it for this week. Next we'll be focusing on the Electrical system and buttoning up the last bits of the motor in anticipation of it's first start. (Promise they'll be video when we get there!)


    CBB





    For the few of you that were worried about the 8BA in the photos for the last few weeks. Check out this thread to see how it will fit into the T.
     
  17. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,657

    MrModelT
    Member

    Nicely done!

    As far as the E-brake rod is, it would hit the Warford anyway...whether you lowered it or not. Lowering the car has no bearing on engine or E-brake rod placemment.

    It won't interfere with the E-brake on position, but it will not allow you to put the lever forward to allow you to engage Model T high when you let the clutch out.

    If you intend to use it like a traditional T....you will have to modify it. I removed my lever all together and use my foot to hold it in neutral at stops.

    I still retained the cross-rod (unmodified) as it controls my Rocky-Mountain brakes...but it serves no other purpose.

    The lever removal also yields more room in the cab and easy egress from the driver side.

    Are you planning to run Rocky-Mountain brakes?

    Also....you might want to think about dipping the center of the front axle to allow access to the crank bushing. If you are running 12v....you will want to use the electric start as little as possible...as it puts real stress on the bendix spring. This is a problem on the "Special" and we will be modifing it's front axle very soon. We will have a "how to" up if you are interested in doing the same.

    I love using the hand crank as it starts so easily.

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    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  18. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    Wow....we actually did something. I can tell you how it went.

    99 bottles of RTV on the wall.....
    Take the AUX trans apart.
    Clean and use 1/2 tube of RTV sealer.
    Put it back to gather (wrong)
    Take the AUX trans apart.
    Clean and use 1/2 tube of RTV sealer.
    Put it back to gather (wrong)
    98 bottles of RTV on the wall.....
    Take the AUX trans apart.
    Clean and use 1/2 tube of RTV sealer.
    Put it back to gather (correctly)
    Use 1/2 tube of RTV sealer.
    Put it all in the vehicle.

    That pretty much sums it up. RTV all over the trans, work table, us and finally in the vehicle.

    Jim
     
  19. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    Mr Model T. Thanks for the brake lever suggestion it makes sense to me. We are running Rocky Mt. brakes. That will be one of our next adventures as we install them. Also, our hand crank is accessible already without modification of the front axle. Just with the weight of the motor there is 1 1/2 in. above it before the axle would interfere. It is pretty low....for a "T", although it still probably has 1 foot of clearance. My other sports cars that are lowered have 3 or 4 inches of clearance. Low is relative to the vehicle, I guess.
    Jim
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  20. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Mr.ModelT

    This Photo is for you.

    [​IMG]

    As Jim Said we've got it low enough to clear the crank. As for the Rocky Mountains It's sorta silly to run an aux trans and not have them on the car. I'm Crazy not suicidal! :rolleyes:

    CBB
     
  21. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,657

    MrModelT
    Member

    That is a lot lower then I thought.....the other photos were decieving.

    You do have okay clearence....but you may have interferrence when the frame and body are on rebound. A good bump and it would peg the axle on the way back up.

    That is my only concern.....but you haven't set the body on the frame yet.....so it may sit lower still.

    I agree.....No Rockys and an Warford is a bit insane.....especially if you miss a shift, then you have ZERO brakes.

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  22. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    Hi guys after being quiet for a bit we got back into the shop this weekend.

    We tackled 2 projects that needed doing for awhile. Sealing up the oil pan cover, and converting the starter from 6V to 12V operation.

    It took us some research to find a way for the starter to work "properly" on 12v. Sure you can just hook them up and run them at 12V but it spins the armature too fast and is really hard on the bendix and the flywheel ring rear. We found a post on the model t Club forums that was really old (links all dead). That said that the Stater of the starter (say that 10 X fast) is made up of 4 field coils. The 4 coils are in a pair series Circuits in parallel. Ok for those of you that think electricity is black magic. This means the Start of two coils are feed from the power in (parallel) and the second to are fed of the tail end of the first coil in it's group (series). If you rewire it into an all Series circuit, you will double the resistance. Since we're doubling the voltage the current stays the same. Which means the Spinning speed of the Armature is the same! Sounds complicate right....NOPE.

    First we start out with this. A nice Gently used 1926 6V Ford model T Starter.
    [​IMG]

    Then you crack it open (4 flat head screws on the bendix end. 1 on the band clamp at the back, 4 around the belt in the middle and 2 in the vents covered by the band clamp that hold the brush power leads in place)

    Now your looking at something like this.
    [​IMG]

    For clarity I added some labels. The Big Pink arrow points to the Stater (the fixed part of the starter). The Big Yellow To the armature (the spinny part of the starter)
    Power comes into the stater via that big copper bolt in the bottom right of the image. Red 5 need cut (remove enough of the bus bar that it will not accidentally make contact). You need to add a jumper wire between Blue 1 ans Green 2. We used a section of #10 copper covered with cotton / vinyl jacket in the following photo.
    [​IMG]
    (please note we forgot to take a picture after we cut the bus at Red5.)

    Once we put it all back together This is what you get.
    [​IMG]

    and works!


    When replacing the bendix assemble we figured out that the old bolts were bugger to bad to keep using. (the bottom left 2 bolts) So we replaced them with the two in the top right.
    [​IMG]

    Jim also started singing 99 tubes of Permitex on the wall as he crawled under the car to seal the oil pan cover up.

    [​IMG]
    (For the Folks keeping score at home that's tube #4 that we've used thus far on the build.:eek: :D )

    What were The end results?
    [​IMG]
    1000pts if you correctly identify the parts of the motor that are missing from this photo!

    And proof Jim did some work. (cleaning the left over permitex off the motor)
    [​IMG]

    That was the weekend's work. If you questions on the starter rewire or comments in general please speak up. We'd love to hear them.

    CBB
     
  23. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,657

    MrModelT
    Member

    Bravo guys!

    The 6v to 12v conversion is something I need to do on my starter as well.

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  24. 29pu
    Joined: Oct 31, 2008
    Posts: 159

    29pu
    Member

    I`ll take a guess.Castle nuts and cotter pins.Also I think you want to wrap string around the inspection cover nuts.Thats where they usually leak.
     
  25. Crazybillybob
    Joined: Nov 8, 2010
    Posts: 312

    Crazybillybob
    Member
    from Ohio

    That was a good guess...and close but not right.
    We skipped out on the String for the Pan bolts due to the "excessive" use of RTV the bolts are completely covered in the stuff. But rest assured that we have a ball sitting here in case we see one leaking!

    CBB
     
  26. Okay, I'll bite on that one. How about educating an old fool and tell me how one would use string to stop or slow up a leak?
     
  27. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    Hey, I will jump in on this one. I stole these examples from multiple Model T motor rebuild sites.

    Oil Leaks
    Remove pan and inside retaining strap iron things, wash clean, especially in the treads and the bolts. Put the pan and gasket up with 4 bolts, but not so tight that the pan can't be shifted. If you use a solid gasket, use sealer on both sides, I like non hardening Permatex 2 or 3 for easy removing next time. On cork gaskets put it on dry so it does not smash & squeeze out. Now with all the other bolts just started a thread or so, cut up some grocery store wrapping cotton string in 6 inch pieces and coat them with black silicone by running the threads through your fingers dabbed with silicone. Wrap each string around a bolt and tighten the bolt up snug. Do it quickly and recheck each bolt. Don't forget to do the first 4 that were holding the pan up to start. This gets messy, so gloves would be nice. After they are all tight, wash your hands and cut off the excess string with a single edge razor blade or good small knife. Even though it is a messy job I don't mind doing it, because it gives good results. And if one leaks you can always redo one or more by spraying parts cleaner at the threads and redoing it. I have never had to redo one, and I have done several cars that way, including my own, several times over the last 10 years.
    Aaron G.


    Here is another one.
    By george house on Thursday, December 27, 2012 - 02:10 pm:
    You'll do good to skip the plastic washers on the crankcase underside inspection cover. I use light cotton string found on feed sacks. Just wrap them opposite bolt rotation about 4-5 times and you'll never get any leaks

    We chose the RTV option on the oil pan inspection cover. But if you look close at some of the pictures you will see string hanging from the bolts that hold the oil pan to the block. A mix of old and new techniques....that seems to cover our build pretty well.:)

    Jim
     
  28. xrw urabus
    Joined: May 26, 2010
    Posts: 49

    xrw urabus
    Member
    from ohio

    Hey.....sidevalve8ba I noticed your post count hit 666 on our thread today!

    Bruce, I think he just hexed us!:eek:

    Now we are in trouble.:rolleyes:
     
  29. Uh-oh! Didn't mean to put a hex on your build. I have really been enjoying this build. My experience with T models is quite limited. It has been a real learning experience. Keep up the good work and I'll see what I can do on this end to undo any possible hex. :eek::D:eek:

    I'll have to save that string trick for future reference. Thanks.
     

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