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Technical 235 hydraulic lifter ID

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 47streamliner, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. 6inarow
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 2,183

    6inarow
    Member

    You forgot to add "get out your checkbook" by the time its done $800-1000 wont come close to buying parts or doing the machine work. Triple that and start in on it. These things are heavy, make no horse power, are inefficient, sometimes hard to work on, expensive....... the list goes on and on. Thats the good news. We can fill you in on the bad stuff if you want. Or bring it my my place. I have a spot for it
     
    bobg1951chevy likes this.
  2. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    Sooo I could do an LS swap for the price of a 235 rebuild , awesome .


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    jw179251 likes this.
  3. 6inarow
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 2,183

    6inarow
    Member

    P1010008.JPG

    mostly home made. you can do it with time and patience
     
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  4. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    I don't mind doing the work ,but if it costs 2500- 3500 for parts and the machine shop work there's no way I will have that type of cash available for another 3-5 years .

    My 216 runs pretty good but doesn't have the power to keep up for some around town driving . It has a hell of a time with 55+ mph to get me to 75% of the shows and cruises . I have a 56 rear end and can get a good t5 for a good price . My understanding is my 216 won't be overly happy with the t5 but will be better .

    I picked up the 235 to be an easy cost effective swap out that the rest of my parts will work well with .


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  5. 6inarow
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 2,183

    6inarow
    Member

    Yeah I get that on the swap and on how 216s operate. Keep your cash handy. Sooner or later you will find a good running 235/261 or 270/302 GMC for a couple hundred bucks. Most people cant wait to get rid of them. Meanwhile take care of what you have. Clean everything to within an inch of its life and you may have trading material already. Another trans option is a 3 speed OD from 55-70. They are still out there too.

    I am too dumb to work on anything else. Or maybe its better said "you dance with the one that brung ya". Either way inlines still work for some of us. Keep looking
     
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  6. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    Is it that once someone starts to use anti foulers to "fix" a problem they are typically going down hill?

    Is this 1960. 235 I picked up even worth digging into to see if it might be just as easy as valve stem seals gone bad ?


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  7. 6-bangertim
    Joined: Oct 3, 2011
    Posts: 356

    6-bangertim
    Member
    from California

    STOCK valve seals are nothing more than a o-ring on the valve stem under the retainer. GOOD rebuilders/shops use umbrella seals that sit over the valve guide, but would be a crutch AT BEST if the guide is worn bad enough. Borrow or rent a valve spring compressor. As you pull the valves out, look for heavy, oily deposits on the underside of each intake valve - that would indicate a worn valve guide. The BEST fix is bronze guide liners, but the guides can be knurled and resized if it isn't worn much more than .004". Knurling is cheaper, and will work OK for a hobby car, just not the best bet for a daily-driver in the long run. Clean up the head best you can to make it SAFE to handle, take it into a graybeard machinist for a 'clean and mag' to check for cracks, and an estimate for what it needs. PASS on stellite exhaust valves and hard seats, unless the seats are bad - not really necessary for a hobby car IMO.

    Look at the RIDGE at the top of each cylinder after scraping the carbon off, maybe use a feeler gauge to guesstimate how thick the ridge is. Kinda hard to say just how bad the ridge needs to be, but a MINOR ridge that barely catches your fingernail would be a GOOD sign for cylinder wear. Just use a ball hone on the bores and use MOLLY rings. Scrape the carbon of the tops of the pistons to look for numbers stamped on the tops - that will tell you the oversize of the bore (.030, .040, .060, etc.). A machinist with an inside mic is the BEST way to check the bores for taper and out-of-round.

    Pull the oil pan and check bearing clearances with some red Plastigauge, look at the crank journals and bearings for heavy grooves, copper on the inserts. Rods are OK up to .003", mains up to .004", but the smaller the clearances the better the oil pressure! Any grooves on the crank that can catch your fingernail is a sign the the crank might need to be turned undersize, or at least polished. Look at the backside of the bearing inserts for the undersize on BOTH rods and mains BEFORE you order replacements! Again, a machinist can check the crank journals for excessive wear - taper and out-of-round.

    With the pan off, pull the timing gear cover and check for a FIBRE gear on the cam, replace it with ALUMINUM!!! Not a matter of if, but a matter of WHEN a fibre gear will strip the teeth off!

    I LOVE these ol' turds for the past 40 years, but I'll be HONEST - they are NOT a cheap rebuild when everything is said and done with head work and rebuilt rocker assembly, boring with new pistons, cam and lifters, turning the crank with new bearings, etc. The BEST bang for the buck is upgrading to a 292 truck six - costs are nearly the same as a later 250 to rebuild, with better parts availability for water and fuel pumps, speed equipment, etc. The savings over a 235 rebuild will easily cover new engine mounts and all the nickle-dime crap required with a swap. Also, the later sixes share the same bellhousing pattern as the SBC. Rockauto.com has the BEST prices I've seen for engine parts. Only real advantage to a 235/261 swap these days is it is nearly a drop-in!

    A CHEAP upgrade for your 216 is the 235 carb and intake with adaptor rings from Tom Langdon (Stovebolt Engine Co.). Fenton headers can be used on both 216 and 235 engines. If you want to go inside, get the cam reground to a 3/4 grind, reface the lifters for under $200. A cam helps any six BREATH better, helps a TON - even with a stock intake and carb! :) Feel free to PM me, maybe we can talk on the phone about questions, more tips! Good Luck, Tim
     
    bobg1951chevy likes this.
  8. 6inarow
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 2,183

    6inarow
    Member

    I picked up the 235 to be an easy cost effective swap out that the rest of my parts will work well with .


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app[/QUOTE

    Well you didnt ask my advice so I probably shouldnt give it but Im going to. I hate to see someone inexperienced get in over their head. Set the 235 you just picked up aside and look for another for a couple hundred bucks. If you start on this one I think it will be like kicking the proverbial hornets nest
     
    bobg1951chevy likes this.
  9. Always good info from Tim.
    I read his words of wisdom from another site, where his '57 was a "calendar car of the month".
     
  10. 6-bangertim
    Joined: Oct 3, 2011
    Posts: 356

    6-bangertim
    Member
    from California

    Wow... THANKS Bob, I appreciate your kind words! Jeeze, you even REMEMBER my 150 from almost 10 years ago!!! :)

    My hope for the OP is that the motor is a little tired, but not totally worn out. Maybe he can sneek by with a ring and valve job, knurled guides, rod bearings... I would regrind the cam to a 3/4 profile, or a dual pattern cam like Tom Langdon's BULLDOG cam with SOLID lifters, bump-up mid-range power. Hydrolic lifters currently available are just plain JUNK - get noisy early on, no matter how you adjust them or how often!

    Me thinks the OP could use a good mentor on this deal to LOOK at exactly what he has, so this mill doesn't snowball out of reach on him. If cash is really tight, maybe he can get his machine work done at a vo-tech school in his area, or sign up for a night school and do the engine there with help from an instructor. Seat-time at the library is as CHEAP as it gets to learn about rebuilding from a number of books there... I'll do what I can here from San Diego with what I've learned the hard way and through reading a TON about engines.
     
    bobg1951chevy likes this.
  11. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    I appreciate any and all help I get !

    I actually went with this engine with the understanding the hydraulic lifters were better . I knew if I tried to get crazy with the cam I'd end up with lifter float ( no bueno ) but wasn't looking nor can I afford to get crazy with it .

    Yes is realllllly tight . I traded a 800cfm Holley double pumper and an auto loc shaved door handle kit + $200 for this engine . That was most or all the cards I held at the time .

    I hadn't thought about looking votech / community colleges for machine shop services .


    Thank you all who have given advice on what might be a declining situation. I'm going to take the head off later this week or this weekend and see if there is any obvious defects .

    If y'all don't mind when the head comes off I might post a pic or two to see if you guys spot some indicators I don't see or I'm not familiar with.



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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  12. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    Oh and the powerglide that I got as a " bonus " with the 235 ... does anyone actually want these or is it basically scrap / core


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  13. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    Update :

    Gave a shout to a couple of guys in clubs with almost all straight sixes . They pointed to a shop and got some pricing that wasn't shit a kitten sorta prices .

    Hot tank head
    Hot tank block
    Valve job
    Mag head
    Mag block
    Bore / hone block
    Polish crank

    Grand total $350 -400

    That was standard pricing and the club guy said to drop his name and "they'd take care of me " so it might end up better or at least do a few extras while he's in there type thing .

    Does that sound about right for these engines ?


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  14. 47streamliner
    Joined: Feb 24, 2014
    Posts: 157

    47streamliner
    Member
    from Huntley il

    If I get the cam ground with the 3/4 grind is that enough it require different push rods and springs ?


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  15. Pat
    Joined: Jan 6, 2002
    Posts: 122

    Pat
    Member

    Those prices seem very fair. Sealed power vs715 is what I have used in the past for valve springs. I think that's a 455 Buick part. Elgin or Sealed Power? make aftermarket pushrods that look to be stronger than the originals. Larger diameter and slightly lighter I think. I'd have to root through the garage to see if I have the old box.
     
  16. jw179251
    Joined: Dec 18, 2011
    Posts: 7

    jw179251
    Member
    from oregon

    235's have replaceable valve guides, so why would you bronze line worn out guides?
    And if you can't work on a Stovebolt six, there's not much hope. This is for the folks that think these are a hard motor to work on and temperamental. Pretty hard to get more basic than a 235.
     
  17. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 1,493

    RMONTY
    Member

    I read through the thread and am confused. If you haven't done a compression test do that before doing anything else. Bad compression can give you a really good diagnosis and an idea of overall health of the engine without doing anything but removing 6 spark plugs. Just my .02 worth....
     
    jw179251 likes this.
  18. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 3,203

    southcross2631
    Member

    Beg borrow or steal a leakdown tester. That will tell you if you have a good base or just pissing up a rope. If you can't rebuild a 235 then you need a new hobby. I rebuilt my first one when I was 14.
    My dad who was a mechanic would drive nothing else. One night he came home from work with his
    59 Biscayne smoking and missing. We pulled it out and honed it , replaced the cracked piston with another used piston .Put new rings and bearings. He ground the valves , put it back together and drove it to work the next day. He drove that old car until I wrecked it . Boy was he pissed about that ! He would not let me or my brothers drive anything but inline Chevy 6's. Probably saved our lives.
    That anti fouler is a sure sign of bad valve seals, guides or rings.
     
  19. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,462

    sunbeam
    Member

    Look at the back side of the intake valve if there is a large build up of carbon suspect valves stems. If not and they had to go to a antifouler most likely rings. My take on increased oil use after a valve job ports were not cleaned of grinder grit and caused cylinder wear. Do not take it for granted the machine shop cleaned up after them selves.
     

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