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Projects '23 Model T Gow Job

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by guitarguy, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    <<<<<<New avatar

    I commissioned @39ChevyBob , to colorize to my specs, the single true inspiration for my build. Some of you probably aren't as near infatuated with this car as I am, but that's ok. As the saying goes, If we all liked the same things......

    If money was no object, I would recreate this car in it's original state. It just captivates me like no other car. Hard to believe a worn out old gow job could do that.

    But for now, lets talk about the AMAZING, hit the ball out of the park, job that Bob did on this colorization of this often viewed 1938 photograph originally taken by Herman Schultheis. I present my view of the Boyle Heights Roadster. I can't wait to frame the fullsize photograph. Thanks Bob!

    Speedster project 228.1.jpg
     
    RodStRace, Mikko_, Hitchhiker and 7 others like this.
  2. Outback
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,158

    Outback
    Member
    from NE Vic

    What an awesome lil jigger! & great job on colour!
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  3. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,876

    dumprat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from b.c.

    That is super cool!
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  4. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,570

    The37Kid
    Member

    Wonder why the rim is missing from the spider?

    Bob
     
  5. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    My guess is time and weather disintegrated it to the point the mounting holes gave up or it cracked and fell apart. Pretty common on T wheels that sit outside....although my doodlebug one has held up good.
     
  6. 39ChevyBob
    Joined: Jul 14, 2011
    Posts: 601

    39ChevyBob
    Member
    from Pomona CA

    @guitarguy, thanks so much for the nice words! Really happy that you are pleased with the outcome.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  7. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    Some minor progress. My engine builder started on the A-crank conversion. You will actually later see me build (assemble) my own engine, I just don't have the abilities to do the machining and babbit pouring to do these engines. As a totally do it yourselfer, it almost seems weird to me, to have someone else doing so much work on my own stuff, but I know my limits....and obviously I am not a machinist.

    So he chucked up the two crankshafts I sent him and turned the snouts down to fit the Model T crank gear. Next step is to drop them off at his preferred machine shop to to have the mains turned way down and the rods turned to clean them up.

    Speedster project 229.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 230.1.jpeg
     
  8. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,876

    dumprat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from b.c.

    No thoughts of running a counterweighted crank?

    Any progress on the wood front?
     
  9. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,570

    The37Kid
    Member

    Will the cranks stay stock A length, or will the rear flange get modified? Bob
     
  10. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    I can have two stock cranks modded for 1/2 of what a new Scat crank costs. And I really don't know what kind of use I will be putting on the car once it does run to say if I should get a better counterbalanced crank. Right now, I feel the limited use is worth the $600-$800 in savings towards other things. A-cranks are pretty beefy also and have been done this way a long time, the rotating assy will be dynamically balanced too.

    One crank is to be a spare, I need to get the work done by people who actually know how to do while I still can, thus getting two done now. We're not getting any younger.

    No wood or body work yet. Sorry

    Stock length. It seems to be super hit and miss on the reliability of a shortened crank. But not only that, because I am using the A trans, there is no reason to shorten the crank.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  11. Kevin Pharis
    Joined: Aug 22, 2020
    Posts: 117

    Kevin Pharis

    Good call not to shorten the crank! The shortened cranks can be reliable... but it’s a ton of work! Many early attempts have broken because much of the fillet radius weld is removed during grinding, and an insufficient weld (or thread) was used on the opposite side. Best to leave em full length... if you can.

    Not sure why you are cutting down the journals tho...? I run a .01”/.01” A crank on babbit in my racer... and it’s tight, but fits. When you carve out the block for the bearing material, you will just barely break into the bolt holes.

    Adding counterweights adds mass to the crank without stiffening it... and so theoretically could cause a crank to break prematurely compared to the stock crank. In my book, stiff rods and a harmonic balancer would be prerequisites for the counterweights.
     
  12. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    Hi @Kevin Pharis , nice to see you over here, I usually only see you on the MTFCA site.

    Mains will get turned to 1.590", rods to enough to clean them up. Geez, I am not sure how you managed to run only a .010 under main. Your babbit must be micro thin. Anyhow, it just seems to be the standard to do this swap to go 1.590". And I also figured the Scat crank if I ever go there is 1.590" too.

    My biggest hurdle right now is sealing up the rear. All the sort of available options are way to expensive for me. I will try and come up with something that may or may not work, time will tell. It will leak some oil, I've already come to terms with that, just minimizing it will be what I will try to do.....on a budget.
     
    Leon Sandcastle likes this.
  13. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,876

    dumprat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from b.c.

    Are you running a rope seal and slingers? Or is there room?
     
  14. Kevin Pharis
    Joined: Aug 22, 2020
    Posts: 117

    Kevin Pharis

    I read somewhere once... that babbitt should be about .040” - .050” radial thickness for the best balance of compression strength and heat transfer... and that’s been a reliable combination for me... so far (10+ years).

    I’ve shortened a couple A cranks... and it’s expensive and risky to practice on a really nice one. Wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of A cranks that get shortened for a T, are from an A guys scrap pile. And it’s not unusual to find .040” - .050” under A cranks for $5 at a swap meet.

    I thought the biggest journal Scat crank only came in 1.500”/1.500”...?
     
  15. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    Outback likes this.
  16. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    I actually have two engines going together
    A) is the A crank / T block / Ross piston deal
    B) is a T crank/rods/block/ off the shelf T high compression pistons...kinda a "cheap" engine build...a starter engine if you will.

    On the T engine, there is no extra room between the rear cap and crank flange for a seal, as the cap is the thrust surface.

    The A crank is a little bit better to at least use a slinger similar to the stock cap design....I hope.
     
  17. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,876

    dumprat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from b.c.

    Hmm weird. Could you run some sort of a lip seal against the back of the crank flange? Just a thought. Leaks would drive me nuts.
     
  18. Kevin Pharis
    Joined: Aug 22, 2020
    Posts: 117

    Kevin Pharis

    I made a spacer for a fella that ran a Fronty pan with C4 tranny... he ran a one piece lip seal against the spacer OD
     
    dumprat likes this.
  19. Jrs50
    Joined: Jun 4, 2019
    Posts: 135

    Jrs50
    Member

    I just found this thread and have been reading it at leisure for the last four days. Very cool build. Speedster project 206.1.jpg
    I damn near got an erection when I saw this!
    Your "hot motor" with sounds very erotic.
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  20. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    Not much to report from my end, but over the past month I have received many pics from the machinist. Lots and lots of block work, quite frankly a little more than even I anticipated.

    Lets start with boring the mains for the larger Model A crank:

    Speedster project 231.1.jpeg


    As you can see, the boring goes right out to the edge of the main bolt holes:

    Speedster project 233.1.jpeg


    The front and rear main castings need to be shortened to clear the counter throws on the crank.

    Speedster project 235.1.jpeg


    New "pin" holes are drilled to hold the babbit in place:

    Speedster project 236.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 239.1.jpeg


    Now the crank lays in there real nice:

    Speedster project 241.1.jpeg
     
  21. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    On to a typical crack in the water jacket. This is pretty common, and I was happy to hear he could fix rather than me trying to get a guy the next state over to do it when the block cam back.

    Speedster project 242.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 243.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 244.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 245.1.jpeg



    On to more block work, to get the cam into the block due to the larger lobes, notches have to be made on the first two cam tunnels.

    Speedster project 247.1.jpeg


    The cam due to the lobe size uses a larger lifter base, very similar to a Ford Y-block. But with the curved wall of the block, they don't sit down enough to clear the lobes. so a little counter sinking is required.

    Speedster project 248.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 249.1.jpeg

    And then, to add to it, the cam lobes also hit the side of the block----the paper is there to protect the lobe:

    Speedster project 251.1.jpeg


    First counter sink the lifters, just a little eyebrow :

    Speedster project 252.1.jpeg


    Then a trough cut down the side of the block to clear the lobes....on the other side of the center web, it only hit in one little spot:

    Speedster project 255.2.jpeg



    Setting up to pour babbitt, this is the latest as of about a week or so ago. I know he poured the caps as he sent me a video. I'm not sure if he got to the block yet.

    Speedster project 263.1.jpeg
     
  22. Barrelnose pickup
    Joined: Aug 20, 2008
    Posts: 1,206

    Barrelnose pickup
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Enjoying this, thanks
     
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  23. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,570

    The37Kid
    Member

    Impressive block work, speed is never cheap, hope you will be going fast and safe. Bob
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  24. awesome work! Quick question- have you experienced irregular/early wear on the cam from the notches in the cam tunnels?

    Early Chevy 4's have the same issue of limited cam profile, so I'm really looking forward to seeing how this works out for you!
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  25. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 106

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    Ask your machinist if he would share how he got the finish on the block after the lock stitch crack fix. Amazing!!
     
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  26. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,570

    The37Kid
    Member


    I think the stock split cam bearings are still being used, getting that spring clip in may have been tricky. Bob
     
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  27. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,358

    RodStRace
    Member

    Agreed, beautiful work!
    Glad he is documenting this work, it is a vanishing art.
    Really enjoying this old style build, it's not the way I'd go, but it is great to see the history of what evolved into later stuff I am interested in, and history is a great teacher.
     
    Atwater Mike and guitarguy like this.
  28. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    Bob is correct, the notches will mean nothing once the split cam bearings go on and are in place. The notches are strictly to clear the lobes on install.
    However, this guy (and a few others) run bigger Model A based cams right on the block bores---and again, notches needed to clear the lobes.....they use full pressure oiling though.

    I think it's just a needle scaler. The flash lighting hit right on the repair, but if you look close you can still see the plugs.


    Thank You. Yes, I agree it is a total lost art...at least doing this kind of stuff. Proof in point, I had to send this halfway across the country to get it done. No one else around here has either done it, or wanted an astronomical figure to do it. It is a lot of work, my block was set up in the mill for a week....on his timeline as he is retired, but I received pics everyday for a week.

    I love old history, but my former interests of muscle car/race car stuff was just a huge money pit of endlessness. This is true history and it has an end point on the wallet. There are alot of people that get true enjoyment of these old jalopies, myself included, but it took owning a stock Model T to see the big picture of these cars. There is alot of really cool history if you start digging enough.
     
    brEad and RodStRace like this.
  29. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,358

    RodStRace
    Member

    I agree on the muscle car/race car money pit!
    What was once reasonably priced fun has become the playground of serious investment and one-upsmanship. Interesting to follow from the sidelines, but not something I can see doing myself.
    I enjoy this project because you are doing it to a time period and style, but also at what seems to be a working man's price point (aside from that gorgeous race engine) . The research and commitment level is there, but it's doing it with your hands and mind, not chasing down the last quart of original Henry's Black lacquer and a 30's horse hair brush for another 3 points on a judge's sheet.
    Speaking of which, are you going to paint the front pump the same color as the head? Would that be appropriate for a 'kit' install?
     
  30. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 462

    guitarguy
    Member

    @RodStRace Agree, I still love drag racing, and love to watch it it now...all the non NHRA event stuff. All of that exceeded my wallet 15 years ago when I sold mt Dartsport and bought the stock Model T.

    Thank You on the thumbs up on the project. I love the time period, not many have really picked at it. And as I have mentioned, exterior visual wise, I am trying to stay pretty accurate to that time period ('pre 35).

    If the front pump was true to the original kit, I'd probably consider it--maybe I still will...... Not sure on all that as there still is more fab work to be done to actually mount it, so I don't want to paint it and mess it up.
     
    Leon Sandcastle likes this.

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