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Projects '23 Model T Gow Job

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by guitarguy, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    I like the color on the head, will you keep the block & pan black? Congratulations on the new body. Bob
     
    Runnin shine likes this.
  2. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Yes, engine block and pan will remain black as stock. Trying to keep the correctness that someone would have bought it and put it on a stock T engine.

    Someone mentioned at the beginning of this thread that it is hard to build era correct...they were absolutely right. The details will kill you. I really have to think about things that I am doing to keep it period correct for mid-late 1930's
     
  3. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    Yes, knowing what year you pick for the build helps us know if you are keeping things period correct. If it was a '23 T built in 1923 the wheels and axles would be incorrect since they didn't exist yet.:) Bob
     
    Outback likes this.
  4. 48fordnut
    Joined: Nov 4, 2005
    Posts: 3,821

    48fordnut
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Awesome work on the head saving it.Nice color. What a good score on the body and incoming firewall.
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  5. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    I actually believe the car is a 1920-1922, but I was able to find and purchase (if the post office ever delivers it) a rarer late 1923 only metal firewall. So in the name of accuracy, it will be labeled as a '23.

    [/QUOTE]


    Time will tell, there is a Low cowl and a Tall cowl 1917- 1925, 1923 was the only year to have both early and later production. Quick glance at the wire loom hole location will tell Low from Tall. This is a low firewall, wire loom hole in below the terminal block, a tall one will have the hole on top. Bob[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  6. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Correct, but this body came with a wooden firewall, which is earlier than '23, but had metal floorboard risers which was early '20's, and I forgot what other features I had found the put it more square into the '20 - '22 range. And also, as I am sure you know, the low 'mid '23 and earlier, and very late '23 and up high firewalls are not interchangeable. But no matter, the basic body sheet metal was basically the same 17-mid '23, and me changing the firewall to a '23 low style metal firewall will more fit the body to that particular year.
     
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  7. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Found something really cool on the internet. A copy of the instructions for installing the Frontenac head. From a reference point, it answered alot of questions I had, and had some parts illustrations that also helped to answer a few more questions.

    The plan is to try an recreate as much of the installation as possible. The coil box mounting is an interesting deal, they move the box back with 3" wood spacer blocks and remove the long porcelain and bolts from # 1, 2, 3 spark plug wires and install short bolts like a '26-'27 box to reattach the wires too.

    If I can ever get a firewall delivered, I'll have to mock it up. One pretty nice one has been stuck in shipping purgatory for 3 weeks now, and the other that I bought that is only good for mocking up is supposedly in transit.

    upload_2020-8-3_22-3-1.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  8. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    Speed equipment paperwork is great to find. If you plan to make copies I'll swap you a W DSCF9952.JPG infield piece. Bob
     
  9. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Per the Fronty instruction sheet..........

    The only thing I cant figure out is why they wanted the #1, 2 and 3 spark plug wire porcelains removed and replaced with shorter bolts like a later '26-'27 coil box. If it's behind the firewall, why would that matter?

    This is kind of a test, I will make them out of hardwood vs. just common soft fur and trim them up a little thinner on the width. They actually need to be a little thicker by a 1/2" (3" spacing total thickness). This trick is also called out in the Model T Speed Secrets book...my guess it was liberated from the Fronty instruction sheet.

    Speedster project 165.1.jpg
     
  10. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    Just a guess, the three shorter plug porcelains are used to clear the head, #4 is out of the way to start with. I don't understand the need for any wood blocks. Bob
     
  11. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Exactly, once the coil box is moved as far back as they want it, I don't understand the need for the removal of the three porcelains. The valve cover sits almost up against the firewall, and no way to feed those plug wires through the original holes even, but there is plenty of room on the backside of the firewall now. As per most instruction sheets in the 20 century, there is alot to be desired.

    I wasn't sure if I should pursue the recess in the firewall like I was going to do before. I figured just leave the firewall intact (minus the cut out around the column for easy removal) and just space the box back like it is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
    rwrj likes this.
  12. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Boring pic, but a box of dreams.
    Crate contains 2 Model A cranks, 1 Model T block, Stipe "Laruel-Roof" Camshaft, a set of A rods, and some misc pieces. All on it's way to Tulsa Oklahoma to become one, and a spare crank for the shelf. Pistons aren't done yet, Ross Pistons is working on those, custom 7.5 : 1 compression. Shes gonna be runner!

    Speedster project 166.1.jpg
     
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  13. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    Cranks to be drilled for oil & special Main Caps? Bob
     
  14. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    No drilling on the cranks. Pressure to the mains, splash on the rods (similar to a Chevy and Model A setup. Will have to be really mindful of ignition timing.

    Basically I am copying an engine already in use, but it's in a dedicated hill climb car. But I feel it's still ok for street use if your careful with it. He should be racing his in September, but he has upped his compression to 9:1, but his is a Scat drilled crank and full pressure.
     
    Runnin shine likes this.
  15. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    This is were the hobby gets expensive....................
     
  16. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

    Honestly all of this was the furthest from my mind when I started this. Never did I think I would own some amazing parts to create such a combination. A lot of it was being in the right place at the right time and actually having money on hand...sort of. When you want it, sometime you just find a way.

    But even after the engine returns, there are still a ton of details that have not been worked out, which is what I am also putting together a much more traditional T short block / trans unit to install, something a bit more mild.
     
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  17. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    OK, another little project within the project. I wanted to recreate the Forntenac header you could purchase with the kit. All I had was a pic from the 1923 factory catalog. So I started blowing it up and hoped the scaling would be correct. Its pretty close actually, based off the pipe diameter and the port spacing. Being I couldn't obviously print something this large on one piece of paper, I set about breaking the full size version back down to smaller printable sections. I then used a artist light box (it back lights drawings so they are easier to copy/trace) and started overlaying the pieces to create a full scale template. Through my research, a knowledgeable Fronty enthusiast had mentioned on a older post on the Model T website the bends are on a 6" radius. So with the template now a reality, I will place my order with Summit and order two 6" radius, 1.5" diameter U bends.

    Speedster project 167.1.jpg
     
    winduptoy, cactus1, brEad and 9 others like this.
  18. Outback
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,156

    Outback
    Member
    from NE Vic

    So good to read about what you guys are playing with! So good!
     
  19. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,799

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    Man that is going to be one cool engine when you are done! 99% of people will have no idea what it is.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  20. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,799

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    You mentioned earlier about looking for a BBM oil pump to modify, why not try finding one out of a dodge or plymouth flathead six? They started using a geroter pump in the 30's and are externally mounted to the engine. With some fiddling, filing, braising and an extra starter drive gear you could run one off the ring gear. Poof! Vintage looking race car mods.
     
  21. Runnin shine
    Joined: Apr 12, 2013
    Posts: 3,183

    Runnin shine
    Member

    Jet96, kidcampbell71 and 64 DODGE 440 like this.
  22. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    1925%20gallivan%20model%20t%20sprint%20car,%20marchese%20bros%20chassis,%20gallivan%20head.jpg

    Did I ever post this? Bob
     
  23. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    You or someone did before. Its a neat car. There were a few cars they raced. I tried to contact them because I am pretty sure there is relations to me. Their grandfather was from Sicily, same as mine. No one ever replied...like alot of emails I send looking for info it seems :(
     
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  24. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Dang it to hell. I realized after mocking some things up, that Fronty header I am trying to duplicate probably fits a narrower single seat racer. If I built it as is, it would run right into the cowl side of the stock body. That's a bummer, but I'll make something similar anyhow in the spirit of that style.
     
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  25. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,148

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Take some measurements before you do anything or make a cardboard mock-up. It seems likely that they would make a pre-fab header to fit installation on a "normal" car.
     
  26. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    They offered a cast iron manifold for the "normal" car. So my guess is the header is for the race car....which they offered as a kit or turn key auto.

    No problem though, I was planning to make a header, I just thought it would have been great to duplicate what they offered. I will fabricate it still, but be sure to include styling cues of the race car header offered.
     
  27. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    I'm sorry I some how missed your post. I trimmed up a big block Mopar oil pump and "I Think" I can plumb it and adapt it to drive off the front of the generator gear. It seems easy enough, drill and drive a roll pin into the gear and slot the oil pump shaft so it drives it. Plus, the BB Mopar pump also has an easily accessible pressure regulator port to which I can install a Milodon adjustable regulator.

    Well, that's the plan anyhow.........

    Speedster project 168.1.jpg


    The Fronty set up, driven off the camshaft. I can't do that as I am using a timer still. But If I could find a pump more like this, I might be inclined to change a few things. Brown and Sharpe Pumps are too long but have a decent look. If you know of something similar but shorter in height, let me know.

    Brown and Sharpe No. 1 pump

    upload_2020-8-27_20-37-19.png

    Original Fronty setup.......

    Speedster project 169.JPG

    Speedster project 170.JPG
     
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  28. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,799

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    The brown and sharpe #1 is a gear pump. We still have some in old paper mills here. You could use any old gear pump, even an old Chevy oil pump.

    Machining a new housing would be a fun project!
     
    winduptoy likes this.
  29. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Some minor updates.

    I installed the low style firewall, cowl top, radiator, and grill shell. Then I lowered the headlights by using the stock mount flipped upside-down. Worked great.

    Speedster project 174.1.jpg


    Then, due to the column position, I bent the pitman arm to get it pointing in the correct direction.

    Speedster project 172.1.jpg


    I was finally able to get a stock low hood. I promptly removed the side panels. It needs alot of work to fit better. But this was all I was in the mood fore after messing with it after a couple of days. Fits better when it's strapped down and pulled into shape. I'm no sheet metal worker.

    Speedster project 173.1.jpg
     
  30. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    Received my Brown and Sharpe #1 pump today. it was stuck...so it made me a little worried. The size is perfect. I did find a rotation mark, and of course it's the wrong direction......but will it really matter on a gear pump? The only thing that seems like it might matter for the rotation is to swap the plug and relief valve on the front cover. when its all cleaned up, I will look at the cover, but it so far appears it's machined to do so.

    Speedster project 175.1.jpg


    Because it was stuck, I was worried I was going to find alot of rust....turns out what ever was run last through this and then sat became super gummy. Gears are helical cut, not straight---so maybe thats another reason for the directional rotation? Still seems like it should work though.

    Speedster project 177.1.jpg



    Cool that it has an adjustable relief valve. From what I have seen shopping for used ones, not all of them do.

    Speedster project 179.1.jpg


    Dropped all the parts in a kerosene soaking bath for tonight. Will clean it up tomorrow. And them I need to find someone that can mill a bunch off the rear housing for me to trim it up some.

    Speedster project 181.1.jpg
     
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