Projects '23 Model T Gow Job - AKA: Sand Creek Special

Been trying to continue tackling the lower panel install. It has been quite the challenge mating new metal to rusty old pitted, and in many spots very thin metal. And at the same time as all that, also dealing with many bumps and bruises this body has received over its lifetime.

As I have said, I am no body guy, but I've been paying attention. Matt @IronTrap has put many trick and tips in his videos and they have helped. I have been having some good luck letting some of my welds in certain areas shrinking the original dented metal back into a reasonable shape. Other areas using a body hammer and dolly to stretch the weld and surrounding metal back out.

So I went out over the course a several hours today and worked at it some more. I'm getting there. This won't be a completely metal finished car with an invisible repair. Yes, the bullet holes are staying, I did weld the crack above them after drilling holes on each end. I will grind the weld down, whether I leave the visible repair line or smooth it over remains to be seen. To take care of the massive pitting over the entire body is going to be alot of work. I may take care of most of it. For the sake of accuracy, if this repair was done way back when, I get the feeling in true low buck fashion, it would be a ground weld left with minor dents and called good enough and painted over...........What do you all think?

 

Ever tried lead? If it was an old repair it would have been leaded over. Or even just braised and left as you are doing.

 

No, I have never tried lead. If you recall some pics a bit back, when I was grinding back the intended repair area, I did uncover an old lead repair---Which was on top of the pitted metal. So that would be a logical repair too.

I thought about TIG brazing it just to be proper, but am aware of the fact you can't really weld on a braze, and with the TIG, it's easy enough to dial back the heat to do a real weld. I am set at 25 amps, and I can tell you once I get a puddle, I back off the pedal some....It is really thin on the original stuff at the seam.

It's hard to decide at this point. I have seen enough photos of the period to determine that quite often things were left as the were and painted over, dents, repairs and all. I don't want to make it totally shitty though either----just perfectly shitty.

 

Finally done. It has been a long tedious process welding this panel in, dealing with the major dents and ripples right on the seam of the body and repair panel. I'm learning as I go. I don't think there would be anyway possible to do this with a MIG welder. I have TIG welder turn down to 25 amps and I am still only partly on the pedal once I get a flow established. The body is super thin in spots. I have about 12-13 hours into getting this panel on over three days....Again, I'm a major novice at exterior sheetmetal work.

So now on to making it look a little prettier. Ive done some shrinking and stretching with the hammer and dolly and using some heat and quenching---or not, depending. Its interesting to see what the metal does moving it around.

Here it is all welded in:

 

Looking Good!!

 

Every lead job I ever did came back to haunt me years later, when the acid that was used to tin the metal started to corrode under the finish paint job. Even though I carefully attempted to neutralize it, using both of the published solutions to scrub it with.
So, I would get it as flat as you can, then rough it up and etch it, then apply some body puddy to finish it with. You can then allow some traditional perfectionist to undo it some time in the future.
The only reason I see for using lead in the early years, was because plastic body puddy wasn't invented yet.

 

I've done a couple T's, going off memory now, but isn't that bottom line of the patch supposed to be straight? I believe the wood sill is straight in that area , no?

 

Is it? Who knows. I was actually having this discussion with a friend of mine tonight, His T appears to be the same as mine---but his is also not perfect either, and in need of the same patches. To much of mine was gone to determine.

Also look back a page to the pic with the bad area cut out, the sill is not straight across. Also, as I mentioned to him, looking at a T body from a top view, it is constantly narrowing towards the front. The inner part of the wood sill is indeed flat and straight. The taper is in the outer wood piece screwed to the inner piece. Im not saying I am correct, and these are hand formed panels laid on top of another body that was used for reference to make. I don't know if they are 100% correct, and it's not a factory OE restoration.

That all said, the bottom flange curved as it is, bends over the bottom of the sill plenty enough to be secured, and more importantly, the body panel is solid again. Correct though?, I don't know.

 

I have 3 roadster bodies in the barn, I'll have a look tomorrow

 

Well, I got some pics today, sadly not so good as I am hobbling on crutches with broken leg. so, the black 23 body is as i say, straight on the bottom so that from the rear portion that lines up with the sides below the turtle deck is straight on the very bottom where the nails attach the skin on the bottom. same on the primer 14 body, and the third body is too far into uncrutch territory for me to navigate. the better story is the wood sill pic. this is an original 24 sill, and see that the rear wood lines up with the center wood (seat and back rest area) and where the screw driver is sitting I believe a part is missing that would make the whole bottom straight. note the groove and screws sticking out that would mount the missing piece. I also have some wood plans here i could double check, but did not get them dug out to day. Not trying to criticize your work, just trying to help if I can

 

OH no, your fine. I appreciate any input. I see what your mean. That's kind of what my friend and I were wondering. My sill was more complete than yours, so you can see all the pieces and shape missing on yours a few pics back.

I don't know what I can or could do, because the panel seemed to fit pretty good before I cut out the old stuff. I think a little slice on the lip and some more shaping on the body line may have done what your showing. Honestly, I am not that concerned about it, as I said it is not a resto or higher end car, I'm just glad I could get my hands on these panels. I can not understand why they make the ones for the two year only '26-'27 bodies, but not for the more common '25 and earlier bodies. I think the only real concern I may have is what the back panel will fit like down in the repair area. That will have to wait for a bit though. I will run with what I have, at least it's solid now.

He is a pic of the other panel mocked on the car he patterned off of:

 

Loving your build, I don’t know if the 26/27 bodies are any different but as there was nothing left of the bottom of mine I made replacements the same as your mate, still turned out alright imho as would yours.

 

Nice Job! Yes, As I mentioned above, the '26-27 cars are different by alot in that area. Trust me, we made sure of that first.
Thank You for following the ride. It's slow going, but I'm picking away at it.

I appreciate everyones input, good or bad. Unless your going to be your own panel maker, you have to work with whats given to you. I can't make panels like that, so I am working with what was made for me. They are very nice panels, even if not exact. I am happy so far with how this is going. I knew right from the beginning I wasn't trying to own a museum or concours piece. Down and dirty and a little rough is how I ride. See my sig pic if you have any questions.

 

Great to see movement here!

 

Had a rare opportunity to be able to pick up a new set of Rocky Mountian brakes. This is one of the last big dollar purchases I needed to make---as far as I know anyhow. For those unfamiliar with them, they are an outside band brake that goes around the outside of the rear drums, and are mechanically actuated. They don't work well in reverse or in the rain....I don't see either of those being an issue. Seems like I barely drive my cars as it is. @David Mazza thinks that adjusting the parking brake properly will help on the reverse or hill holding ability, and it seems logical. So for sake of period correctness, I bought a set. Kind of needed some kind of braking after all.

 

Awesome, nice work! The details make all the difference!

 

This roadster deserves a best improved from humblest beginnings award! Great work

 

Thank You. I really appreciate it. I have taken a little break from the roadster, been playing with guitars lately.

Plus I hate being outside in the heat any how, as well as general life happening, side work, minor unexpected wellness issues, and more side work always seem to get in the way---day job has kept me really busy too. I will get back on this, it is not forgotten, it will just take me a bit, I need to clear some things off my plate first.

 

Cool project I’ll have to head back to page one and get caught up!

 

A little progress. Gapped some piston rings.




The next day I got a bunch more done. everything had to be cleaned, so I started there. I wanted it to look as authentic as I could on the outside, so I had to drill holes in the new hardened main bolts for cotter pins to use with the castle nuts. That was a little bit of nervousness, but got it done. Getting the cam in isn't a ball of joy either, dealing with lining up the bearing lock pin holes and fitting the lobes through the access troughs in the cam bores. Got it done though, Slid the crank in and and tightened down the mains.

I do have to go back and sand the bottom of the nuts for the main bolts though, to get the slots for the cotter pin holes to line up, going tighter is just too tight. So I have to spend time on that now. But the details count.

 

a thing of beauty for sure!

 

Nothing like bolting together a fresh motor!

 

Ahhh, the assembly gods give-ith and take-ith away.

I went to hang the rods on the pistons, when the rods were redone, they never honed the pin end of the rod. I didn't break out the real fancy measuring stuff, because it wasn't going to make it fit, but a set of digital calipers showed the bushing was .008" smaller than my 1.00" pins. So, off to the machine shop they will go. The only person I can truly blame is the place that re-manufactured the rods, but it's already been through three other sets of hands and no one picked up on it. Hopefully it won't cost me to much more.

 

good attitude; no sense fretting over something that doesn't matter in the big picture.

 

This is the punishment I get for trying to stuff all the wrong parts into a Model T block. Today it took 6 hours to get 2 piston and rod assemblies in. Why? I wasn't warned about the fact the big cam exhaust lobes hit the Model A rods. I installed the first one only to find the engine promptly locked up on rotating it.

Soooo, you have to do what you have to do. Being I could barely even see where the interference was, The best course of action became to add a little assembly grease to the edge of the lobe and let it tap the rod. Then I broke out the Dremel, and carefully started to grind the offending area. It took four test fits to get it to clear with a minimum of .035" (it's actually more, but then it's tough to get the feeler gauges to bend around the lobe and rod.

This is the rough cut:




Then I smoothed and polished it out:





So after a bunch of fighting and grinding, I got one in. Yes, that is at TDC and the dome is huge, all to create just 7.5 : 1 compression. #2 piston went far easier, it actually cleared just barely on install, so I ground a little extra room in that one too. Soooo, the unfortunate part with all of this is my near perfect balance job is no longer near perfect. Part of me knows I should really finish out and then disassemble the entire engine and have it rebalanced. The other part of me says you know what, it's WAY better than most crap that was thrown together over the years by factories and us backyard guys. So I don't know what I will do (probably leave it).

 

Leave it, you will be fine. The piston and crank weight is more important anyway

 

Heck of a tine to ask, if you had cut the valve seats for inserts, and installed plugs flush with the deck on their place, and bored to clear the push rods, would that help the head gasket seat and seal better? I did it with a 4Port Riley back in 1975. Bob

 

Lookin good! I just had to cut some material off of a new set of SCAT rods for a B crank (A journal diameters) in a T. There was no lobe clearance issues... just the hip of the rod to between the lobes



These 4 bangers shake enough as it is... balance yur rods!

 

None of the old valve seats in the block are used, the pushrod holes (old valve guides) were opened up for clearance previously. I really keep meaning to test fit a head gasket, but it should be fine as far as sealing surface goes, the deck is just stock and milled (thus lack of old valve seat which isn't needed).

 

Thanks Kevin. Not all CNC pretty like yours, but just well built in my garage. Yes, I will be taking it all back apart to have it rebalanced it again. It sucks, but he had it to near perfect before, so we'll try again. I actually have to take a little off on the small ends too, not enough clearance between the rod and piston on one side or the other. So we'll just get the whole thing redone.

Edit: Tonight....Yeah, so test fitting----#3 rod was too wide to even fit in the piston. Unfortunately the sequence of parts showing up made the best method of test fitting impossible. And I made a couple of assumptions. It's all good, one step forward, two steps back, but eventually it comes together.

Rods are all fitted now, a little more disassembly and I'll bring it back to the machine shop for rebalancing.