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2 questions regarding flathead/T-5 & Model A axle ratios...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Rocky, Dec 28, 2004.

  1. Not being a real ford-natic, I got a couple questions. I wanna use my old Model A rear axle assy in my lakes Modified [because it's paid for and has juice brakes] and was wondering what ratio was prevalent in the A's. Seems like they all had 4:11's.
    This leads up to my second question. I plan on using my old 50 ford flatmotor with this rear end and would like to know 'zactly which B/W T-5 tranny I should be looking for. I have the old original '50, 3 speed, non-overdrive tranny but I want to use the T-5 for it's overdrive feature. I don't suppose I need a world class tranny for this mega light car but I want one that bolts up to the '50 bellhousing... Should I be looking for a particular tag number? A certain application?
    I had a good shubox overdrive tranny but traded it away to Smokey for a LaSalle 3 speed tranny. DOH!
    And, Modernbeat, I love ya like a brotha but I ain't payin $350 for a moostang tranny...
     
  2. Darwin
    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 505

    Darwin
    Member

    Most original As had a 3.78 rear gear. A typical 'stang T-5 would work okay but others on the board would have to tell you how it mounts up to the old bellhousing. Light car weight notwithstanding the A axle, especially the keyed ends, may not take much abusive treatment from a 50s flathead---might have to baby it some---use skinny tires maybe.
     
  3. TV
    Joined: Aug 28, 2002
    Posts: 1,451

    TV
    Member

    First off most all bangers had 411's and the trans you are looking for is an S-10 type, any wrecking yard can point you the right way. Plan on spending $200 to $225, don't let em get to ya. I think you will have to buy an adapter for that set up, I don't think it will bolt to the stock bell.--TV [​IMG]
     
  4. Welp, the reason I wanna use a ford tranny is so I don't hafta jot out a $210 check to Speedy Bill for his damn S-10 tranny adapter! I did that on the last hot rod I put together with a flatmotor. Hopin I can save a buck or 2 here by using a ford T-5...
     
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  5. Look on the bottom of the banjo center. On the web, there will be a #-##. That will decipher the ratio.Sorry, my chart is not commited to memory yet. I do remember there are six or so possible ratios.
     
  6. Holy shit, Trent. You want me to get up offa this damn chair, go outside in 40 degree cold and get in my van to actually look at this mo-fo? I was hoping somebody less lazy than me had the answer but the range of answers given so far is entertaining....
    alright, alright....I'll go look......................
    in a little while...
    What about the T-5 situation?
     
  7. lik2writ
    Joined: Feb 12, 2004
    Posts: 434

    lik2writ
    Member
    from NY

    The standard was 3:78:1. You can get a common aftermarket 3:54:1 for high speed. I know the T-5 is a good choice with a 4 banger and an "A" axle, but I don't if the combo of the flathead is good with that axle.
     
  8. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    Rocky:

    The problem with the Ford T-5 is the shifter location. When I first set up my modified, I tried to use one, but the shifter would have come out at about my hip.

    From left to right: '39-style top shifter on an 8BA truck mount, S10 T-5 on an Offenhauser adapter, Ford T-5.

    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Thanks Mike.....yeah, I'm aware of the shifter location of the ford T-5 but what I really need to know is bolt pattern. Will the sumbitch go up against the 50 ford bellhousing and bolt to that funny early ford pattern?
     
  10. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    [ QUOTE ]
    Thanks Mike.....yeah, I'm aware of the shifter location of the ford T-5 but what I really need to know is bolt pattern. Will the sumbitch go up against the 50 ford bellhousing and bolt to that funny early ford pattern?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ah, the top two holes match, the bottoms on the tranny are wider. Needs about a 3/4" spacer/adapter plate it you don't want to grind and hack on the tranny input shaft. I made one of plywood a couple of years ago. I'll shoot a picture tomorrow and post it.

    Mike
     
  11. ah HA! So, the T-5 input shaft is a little long, eh? That's good news....means I can whip up an adapter plate and still have enough shaft to work with.
    When I slid the S-10 tranny behind my 59-AB with a Speedway adapter, I removed about 3/8ths inch from the end of the T-5 pilot. I also ground about 1/4" of spline outta the clutch disc so it'd came back far enough to fully disengage. NOt much of a job and the entire thing worked flawlessly. Made the old stocker motor seem a lot more powerful, keeping it in the powerband all the time with all those nice gears...
     
  12. Rusty
    Joined: Mar 4, 2004
    Posts: 9,447

    Rusty
    Member

    Thanks for all the great info
     
  13. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,408

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Rocky - the T5 input is long compared to the early Ford & you have plenty of options for bellhousing.

    The stamped steel 49-51 bellhousing works well - top bottom bolt holes work fine - I think one of the top corner bolts needs some help (welding on bellhousing) & the other re-drilling. You will have about 3/4-1" to "play" with by machining a flat aluminum plate to mate the two.

    Of course, you could use the Offy adapter & a truck/Mercury "ring".

    Lastly, you could use the truck/Merc "ring" & a late 4-spd truck tranny-side mini-bell, & fabricate a flat-plate adapter between the two. But since you already have the '50 bell & it needs a flat-plate adapter, why bother? [​IMG]

    There are a couple different gear ratios in the S10 tranny:
    The most common is:

    4.03/2.37/1.49/1.00/0.86

    These ratios were used in the following tag numbers:
    1352-xxx
    010
    012
    033
    042
    043
    055
    056
    057
    058
    146

    The other gear ratio that was used in the S10 is:

    3.76/2.18/1.41/1.00/0.72

    Found in tag numbers 1352-xxx
    107
    110
    136
    145
    186
    192
    193
    201

    And probably:
    206
    211
    216 (WC)
    221 (WC)
    222 (WC)
    I don't have ratio info for these tags - they're all 92-93 models

    In general, the 4.03 ratio is weaker than the 3.76 ratio tranny. I don't have exact torque ratings, but either should be fine behind a flathead. I'd prefer the 3.76 with 4.11 gears - a more useful 1st gear & better O/D ratio. They're also typically "newer" trannys & more likely to be in good shape.

    In general, the 4.03 ratio was used from 82-85 behind all engines & in 86, GM made the switch to the 3.76 tranny. This holds pretty true.

    98% of S-10 T-5s are Non-World-Class. The ONLY WC T-5s in S-10s were in 1993 behind 2.2/2.5/2.8L engines (tags 216, 221, 222), BUT they all had electronic speedos.

    Electronic speedometers were optional beginning in 91, but became standard in '92.

    You can put the S10 tailshaft & topcover onto any T-5, however, you'll lose the speedo drive. I've seen someone reposition the output shaft speedo gear by wrapping the shaft w/shim stock & epoxy - it was a "home" website & can't remember where I saw it. Looked like it would work fine.

    The T-Bird tranny has a shifter location more forward than the Mustang or Camaro, but not quite as far forward as the S-10 - might work if you stumble upon one, but I wouldn't go looking for one.


    Currently doing research on this topic to try & write a consolidated paper because I've seen far too much BS & rumor floating around. Maybe something for Tech-O-Matic when I finish it... [​IMG]


    Hope it's helpful info...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  14. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,408

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    [ QUOTE ]
    The speedometer gear reposition page is here.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's the one! Thanks! [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  15. Bajo ratio ID. #s will be under the banjo center stamped in the web. Sometimes beat til unreadable.

    9-34=3.777
    9-32=3.55
    9-37=4.11
    9-40=4.44
    9-41=4.55

    This chart was passed on to me. I believe it to be good info.
     
  16. av8
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,716

    av8
    Member

    Thanks Ernie & hpm, great info. I'm long overdue to put a Mustang T-5 in my F-1. I've had the trans and related hardware for several months and have been struggling with a design for a remote shifter that would put the stick in the original Ford-truck location. I think I can accept the compromise of the S-10 shifter location.

    FWIW, with the exception of the shifter location, the Ford T-5 install for an F-1 is nearly made-to-order. The clutch disc fits the T-5 input shaft and the clutch release mechanism remains where it's supposed to be. All that's required is a simple adapter plate, about 1/4 inch trimmed off the nose of the input shaft, and an appropriate pilot bushing -- so I'm told; I haven't done the install before so I'm operating with bits of info for several sources. It remains to be seen how good that info is.

    I'm using both the truck bell housing and trans adapter, of course, but it looks like that adapter could solve a lot of problems for connecting a T-5 to an early block. Just change out the spade-type release shaft for one with an arm.

    [​IMG]




     
  17. HotRodMicky
    Joined: Oct 14, 2001
    Posts: 1,756

    HotRodMicky
    Member

    Hi Rocky,
    from '93 and newer S-10 5-speed boxes are (late) Ford Boltpattern.No kidding! I have one in the backyard(so i know for sure).
    You would need the 49-53 stamped steel bell housing.
    Two bottom holes line up one upper needs to be redrilled
    and the other one needs a tab welded to the housing.
    Very easy swap.

    Michael


     
  18. I'm going the T-5 route on my F-1 Panel as well.
    I just haven't done it yet. Years ago before the truck got sidetracked I bought one of those Cornhusker kits to fit an S10 t5. Lately I've been doing a lot of looking to make a final T-5 choice.

    I plan to document and post the install here when I get around to it.
     
  19. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    Rocky: here a couple of pics from some fooling around I did last winter.

    Cavaet: this is done with a Ford World Class (V-8) tranny, I have no idea how any other tranny will work it this situation.

    1. Baseline: '39-style trans mounted to a truck adapter, flywheel mounted and push as far rearward as possible.

     

    Attached Files:

  20. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    2. WC T-5 mounted to 8BA passenger belll using 3/4" (measured) plywood.

     

    Attached Files:

  21. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    3. Comparison pic. This is very close in all measurements to the baseline, excepting, as noted by av8, the pilot bushing extension.

     

    Attached Files:

  22. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    4. I was going to shoot a pic of the plywood adapter, but it was modified beyond recognition for this bit of silliness; (WC T-5 mounted to ('32-34 4-cylinder BB flywheel housing).

    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  23. heyitsnate
    Joined: Apr 8, 2004
    Posts: 1,610

    heyitsnate
    Member
    from tacoma,wa

    hey rocky,i'm not trying to get off track,but you mentioned saving money,and that's my favorite topic...do you know of a cheaper alternative to an expensive open drive kit? i'm trying to do the same t-5 conversion in my model a ...
     
  24. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,408

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    [ QUOTE ]
    do you know of a cheaper alternative to an expensive open drive kit?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You know, I've been toying with the idea of using an 4x4 T5 out of an S10/Jimmy/Tahoe or Jeep. The shifter remains in the correct location, but instead of a tailshaft, you have a stub shaft/mounting flange for the transfer case. It would seem to be a simple adaptation to convert this to closed drive...you'd need an adapter shaft to go from the fine spline output of the T-5 to the 6/10 (whatever) of the early ford U-joint. Mount a flatplate adapter that will bolt to the trans & the torque-tube bell will bolt to & cut your driveshaft to length.

    Sounds easy when you say it like that. [​IMG]

    I think the 4x4 T-5s drove the speedo from the transfer case, so you may not have any readily available way to drive a speedo...


    [​IMG]
     
  25. modernbeat
    Joined: Jul 2, 2001
    Posts: 1,236

    modernbeat
    Member
    from Dallas, TX

    [ QUOTE ]
    And, Modernbeat, I love ya like a brotha but I ain't payin $350 for a moostang tranny...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    No problem, I'd expect a sharp, resourceful guy like yourself to find one for a bill - like I do.

    I saw someone say that the two top bolts of the Ford pattern T5 mate up with the stamped steel bellhousing, and then someone else repeated it. NO - that's wrong. I've done three of them. For one, I used a one-inch thick adapter plate from Mustang's Unlimited that bolted the T5 to the T10 bellhousing. I had to modify the bellhousing and adapter, but it looks like the input shaft won't have to be cut, or the bellhousing won't have to be welded on. The other two were done a little cleaner. The two BOTTOM bolts bolt right up. One top bolt has to have a new hole drilled in the bellhousing and a reinforced tab has to be welded on the bellhousing for the fourth bolt. Don't sweat welding the bellhousing. It's easy. And if you a building a thin fendered car I highly-highly recomend tracking down an S-10 Tailshaft and topplate with the shifting mechanism. You can also use a Jeep topplate if you have the S-10 tailhousing.
     
  26. LongGone
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 174

    LongGone
    BANNED

    Right! How forgetful: clearly bolted the bottom.

    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  27. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,408

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    If converting from a Mustang tranny, remember 83-93 T-5 have a shorter input shaft than 94-95 T-5 by about 3/4" It's not a big deal & you can change the input shaft if need be (providing you get one from with the same gear ratio) - I did it to put a '94 tranny in my '83...

    Soooo, that's why you may see different thicknesses for the adapter plate between the bell & tranny when folks talk about using a Mustang T-5.

    [​IMG]
     
  28. av8
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,716

    av8
    Member

    Ernie -- Do you have a dimension for one or both input shafts, say from the face of the trans case to the end of the shaft? My Mustang T-5 is of uncertain age.

    TIA

    Mike
     
  29. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,408

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Mike,

    I don't - if the tag is still on it, you can figure it out. There are several websites & I've got a listing. If the metal tag has been removed, often there is a sticker on the top cover with a bar-code - the tag number is printed on this sticker too.

    The '94-95 Mustang trannys also had an all steel front bearing retainer - it will appear to be two pieces. The earlier ones have a cast bearing retainer or aluminum bearing retainer. I can tell by looking, but don't know how to describe it - if that makes any sense. [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     

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