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Technical 1960's 354 race hemi

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by drumyn29, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,583

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Bobby, I have only worked with 1 dist/mag driven pump, it was a Hilborn 150-1, the drive went between the mag and manifold, I am sure the pump would work either way.
     

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  2. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    The block gets picked up tonight and I'll have it in a couple of days but this is a number he pulled off of either heads or block
     

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  3. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    more pics
     

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  4. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,255

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    Some engines needed boxed rods to avoid this.
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oIwbwPcGr...CAE/6bwUkDQc_d8/s1600/Ferrari-Conrod-bent.jpg
    Nitro burning Harley Davidsons, for one.

    Note the notch for the head of the rod bolt is pretty much stock, and that is a pretty weak link in old rods. Fatigue crax from a bunch of tension cycles over the years are very likely in the notch, and also the welds.
    Modern rods would likely be a lot better. I'd magnaflux (wet method, fluorescent ) the crank and rods.
     
  5. pgan
    Joined: Apr 7, 2009
    Posts: 206

    pgan
    Member

    I clicked on this thread because I'm trying to find out what a set of good, stock '55 Hemi heads is worth (the kind Gene Adams says are best).

    But I've got to add a couple of comments. DON'T run a set of used Don's boxed rods in anything. I say this from experience. It's my understanding you can't "check" them by Magnafluxing. You have no idea how many runs are on them. For a drag-only car I'd suggest a set of new aluminum rods.

    I'd also strongly suggest Magnafluxing the crank. Likewise, you should check all clearances, including compression ratio, in any used race engine. This doesn't cost anything. Of course you need new gaskets, plus rings, maybe valve springs, and probably at least rods bearings.

    I've also had the experience of watching way too many drag cars crash, roll, burn, etc. Do you really want to be driving an 8 or 9 second Willys, supercharged or otherwise, "until it blows," and then drive over your own oil slick? I'm a firm believer in Low Buck racing, but that's not worth any price, in my book.
     
  6. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    I want to build a blower motor anyway so maybe I'll just sell this sucker! It would be cool to have it on a stand in the garage but it's also $$$$ just sitting there.
     
  7. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    I shopped around before buying this motor and found every hemi wheeler dealer that was happy to charge me $8000 for basically the same motor, of course there blocks had issues like being a sleeved block, broken cap, etc..
     
  8. r.l.r
    Joined: Dec 5, 2006
    Posts: 86

    r.l.r
    Member

    I had the same issues, finally gave up and bought a 413 dirt cheap and rebuilt it. With the blower and everything I have under 6k in the whole setup. Not as cool looking as a Hemi, but a lot more bang for the buck. Love Hemi's just not the price tag that goes with them. Good luck on your build.
     
  9. Hope this doesn't hijack the thread but here are some thoughts questions, and what I did.

    That's a pretty cool time capsule! Definitely built to make some power in it's day. If they were boxing the rods and re-enforcing the caps I'd bet it wasn't just a gas engine.

    While the boxed rods are cool they are HEAVY! If you use a cam that doesn't have a lot of rpm in it they could work but once you start throwing all that weight around expect surprises. There are plenty of better options these days. A Pontiac rod is the same length as a 354 and can be adapted. Lot's cheaper that an official "hemi" rod. I found some gently used billet Fowler bbc rods that were the same length cheap. I had the pin end bushed for my hemi pistons and had the rod journals on the crank turned down for bbc std bearings. The bbc bearings are a lot cheaper than hemi bearings too.

    The pistons looked forged and I can see Venolia on one. Good pistons. What do the tops look like? I've got some 10.25:1 forged Ross pistons, run an unstripped, big bore 6/71, 11% overdriven on alcohol. Alcohol loves cylinder pressure. Not so much with gas and less pressure still with nitro. The 6:1 is kind of the std for guys running nitro.

    You mention the cam is supposed to have 600 lift. That kind of lift with a stock rocker arm geometry will spell destruction. It starts getting interesting around .540 from what I understand. Also for that much lift it'd almost have to be a roller cam. Any better pictures of the cam?

    Are the pushrods adjustable or does it have adjustable rockers? I had issues breaking the adjustable pushrods so I had 73RR convert my rockers to adjustable and used some weld on tabs, hard chrome shafts, and collars from TRWaters, along with some 3/8 pushrods. No trouble since.

    I can't see, what kind of lifters does it have? Solid, hydraulic, or roller?

    If you decide to put a blower on her seriously consider o-rings and copper head gaskets.

    Is the block filled?

    What kind of trans do you plan on using? If you go with modern automatics seriously look at JW Ultrabell stuff. It's SFI certified and adapts a modern automatic to your hemi block pretty nicely.

    The bottom line is that you REALLY should blow the whole thing apart, do a lot of measuring, and see what you have. Then you can decide what it would take to build either the stack injected engine or the blown. Either will be WAY cool!!! It sounds like you have most of the hard to get parts so don't be discourage. That said it will cost some real $$$ to get her put together.

    For reference, here are a couple pics of the 354 I'm playing with in my Dragmaster.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here's a pic that shows my pistons. I don't have the double roller anymore, I switched to a gear drive.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  10. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    I love hearing positive feedback, thank you!

    The motor just got picked up and is in transit so i know nothing till it lands on my front door this week. I'm wondering why the crank has metal welded to it, internally balance? This my first blown hemi motor and would love some guidance as to what pulleys i should be looking for in keeping it somewhat vintage AND newer safety standards.

    I'm thinking turbo 400 or torqueflite.

    Is turbo 400 and torqueflite same housing bolt pattern?

    I'll need to find an adapter as well.

    For now I'm going check everything and rebuild the way it originally was with the stacks and build a blown motor for later. He said he teflon coated the bearings recently and he said the pistons have a dome. The cam is a crower but no numbers yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  11. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,187

    George
    Member

    For the 727 I like Q.E.C(73RR)s adaptor, Hot heads, Wilcap & TR Waters also makes adaptors for it, HH & Wilcap for the TH-400. (I don't know if TR does or not on the TH).
     
  12. TR Waters
    Joined: Nov 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,439

    TR Waters
    Member
    from Vermont
    1. Early Hemi Tech

    The TH-400 and TF have different patterns, and need a specific adapter for each. I only do the Mopar adapters.
     
  13. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    Of course and i have a badass drag ready sfi approved mike's transmission th400. I guess i have a torqueflite in my future.
     
  14. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,187

    George
    Member

    I'd go with the 727, but if you have a good TH-400 look at wilcap & Hot Heads.
     
  15. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I know it says that in all the magazines, but I could never wrap my head around the reasoning behind replacing a forged steel hemi rod with a cast pontiac rod.... Oh yea, they're "Armo-steel"...:rolleyes:
     
  16. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 4,940

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That is welded to the counterweights to offset the extra weight of those boxed rods. While boxing is what was done "back in the day" it added one hell of a lot of weight to the bottom end, not to mention the unknowns of what those welds have done to the base metal. Done right, not a problem, but not knowing the history I'd be looking into some current aftermarket rods and get those plates shaved off of the crank counterweights.

    So much for the budget, eh?
     
  17. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    He seems to think that Superior in Anaheim built the motor.
     
  18. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,285

    73RR
    Member

    ...use it.....

    .
     
  19. Sorry I haven't called. Feeling under the weather. I'll try and shout at you tomorrow.

    JW Ultra bell is an SFI spec bell that will adapt your th400. You have to cut the cast bell off of the trans and the JW Ultrabell bolts on with the pump bolts. Use some silicone in the bolts or expect leaks.

    I wasn't talking about stock Pontiac Rods FalconGeorge. The first engine I built for my Dragmaster I hydrolocked and bent #1 forged steel rod like it was butter. I like aluminum for the race application. If not that a nice H beam. Price a nice h-beam style rod from an early hemi to a Pontiac and be prepared to be shocked by the price difference.
     
  20. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    I SWEAR THIS STUFF FOLLOWS ME HOME!!!

    He said jack merrill raced them once and then shelved them.

    It was only $100, how could i say no?
     

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  21. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    Bell has already been cut off.
     

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  22. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    I decided to pass on this hemi before my transport friend scooped it up. It would cost way more than what I want to spend and it still won't be a blower motor which is what I want.

    Thanks guys for helping me with my decision.
     
  23. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    If $3000 is way more than you want to spend on a supercharged early Hemi motor,you might want to consider scale modelling.;)


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  24. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    LOL

    It's not just the $3000, it's new rods, new 4 bolt caps, mag the block, springs are probably shot, cam may need to be reground, lifters are probably junk.

    I have found 392's from $1000-$3000 that would need the same work.

    The hilborn is cool but it would need to be gone through, maybe pump is shot, $1000-$1500.

    It starts to add up.
     
  25. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    Well I found an A1 392 hemi block and stock rockers for $400 and they are somewhat local. I guess I'll be building a blown 392.
     

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  26. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Nice score!
    Obviously you have a lot better luck shopping for Hemi parts than I do....!
    Pm me if you need heads....at this point I have 9 sets,with half a dozen more on the way.

    Scott


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  27. bobby_Socks
    Joined: Apr 12, 2006
    Posts: 938

    bobby_Socks
    Member
    from ǑǃƕǑ

    congrats on the block - let me know if you need a crank for it ? Stock one that has not been turned and should clean up with a 10/10 turn.
     
  28. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,677

    drumyn29
    Member

    HELL YEAH I DO!!

    I need all the help I can get.
     
  29. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Just picked up 16 early Hemi cylinder heads today,sent from Mondello.
    There were two full pallets of heads,so I haven't had time to go through them yet,or even unload them out of my truck,as it's snowing like hell and windy up here right now.
    I will let you know what I've got as soon as I take inventory here.

    Scott


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  30. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Here's what an SUV full of Hemi heads looks like.....sunk the back end of the thing like the frickin Titanic.:)
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1389109574.443045.jpg

    I'm still taking inventory on casting numbers.I'll get back to you as soon as I figure out what's in there.
    Out of 16,I'm sure we can find 2 you can use...:)

    Scott


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