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Technical 1952 Cadillac Electric Fuel Pump Too Rich

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by GreaserJosh13, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. GreaserJosh13
    Joined: May 27, 2013
    Posts: 583

    GreaserJosh13
    Member
    from Chino

    Hey guys. Got a question about electric fuel pumps. My Cadillac came with one already installed & it also has a fuel regulator installed as well. I've turned the regulator way down & it still seems to be running really rich. After I drive it I smell like a gas station. When I first got the car it was to the point where when you drive the car & then turned it off it wouldn't restart & would flood. After turning regulator down it seemed to help, but still doesn't start with confidence & stresses me out to the point that I cary a can of starter fluid everywhere I go. I'm also wondering if being too rich could be the cause of the smoke I'm getting while driving. Does anybody have any suggestions on leaning it out a bit. Maybe I should reinstall the original mechanical pump????
    Thanks


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  2. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,818

    BJR
    Member

    Have you ever check the float level in the carb? Or replaced the needle and seat? Also check the floats to see if they have a pin hole in them, shake them after removing them from the carb to see if there is any fuel in them.
     
    X38 and clunker like this.
  3. X2. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that's probably it.

    The needles should stop the bowls from overfilling.

    Let the car run, and remove the top and see if the float bowl has the right amount of gas in it. It's got to be just about on the money to run correctly. You'll find the correct level in your shop manual.

    Here's an easy way to understand carburetors. Get a glass of water and go outside. Fill your mouth half full. Tilt your head back and do a spit take strait up in the air, try to get the water nice and atomized. Good right? Now put 1/4 the water in your mouth and try again. Not such a beautiful plume of water, eh? Now completely fill your entire mouth and try again. Not so good, right? That's exactly why adjusting float height is so important.

    This is how carburetors work. The adjustment screws on the exterior are mainly to adjust the idle circuit. How the carb runs under load is mainly determined by the float level, and all the gas and air passing through the proper holes in the right quantity. Too much gas in the bowl, too much gas will go into the motor and will not be atomizing correctly.

    Most electric fuel pumps will stop pumping when they reach a certain pressure. You'll hear it going like a bat out of hell when you turn the key on without starting the engine, then slow down when the needles stop it. There's a chance your's is defective, or if adjustable it's adjusted too high.

    Caddy didn't add return lines until '58. Unless someone added it, your car will not have a return line back to the tank.

    I have a '60 Cad, which has a return line, but I still have vapor lock issues, so I run an electric helper pump at the tank, in addition to the mechanical pump.


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  4. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    I'd verify the regulator is accurate - lots of recently made "offshore'' parts are suspect. Rochesters like no more than 3 lbs. in normal driving, The carb should be cleaned from the details given.
    If by some chance, the mechanical pump is dual action, still installed for the vacuum pump, and a diaphragm is ruptured, it's pumping oil into the intake.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017

  5. GreaserJosh13
    Joined: May 27, 2013
    Posts: 583

    GreaserJosh13
    Member
    from Chino

    Mechanical pump is not installed. I'll pull the carb apart & check the float. Probably just buy a rebuild kit & rebuild it. Probably needs it anyways. I'd just like to get my wife to go in the car with me, but not gonna happen if the car smells like the inside of a gas tank.


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  6. GreaserJosh13
    Joined: May 27, 2013
    Posts: 583

    GreaserJosh13
    Member
    from Chino

    Can this issue of being too rich cause excessive smoking. Looks like I've got some smoke coming out of the vent tube as well as a little from the oil fill Cap. I checked Compression and all 8 cylinders are between 110-120. I'm going to change the oil because I don't know how long it's been since that's been done & I'll probably add a bottle of engine restore just for shits & giggles.


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  7. GreaserJosh13
    Joined: May 27, 2013
    Posts: 583

    GreaserJosh13
    Member
    from Chino

    It does seem to smoke more when the car is in drive & sitting at a stop light at idle more so than when it's in neutral sitting in the driveway.


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  8. GreaserJosh13
    Joined: May 27, 2013
    Posts: 583

    GreaserJosh13
    Member
    from Chino

    Figure if I can get the car to stop smelling like gas & smoking my wife will be more willing to go along for a drive. Ha ha ha.


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  9. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,818

    BJR
    Member

    If it were mine I would look into getting a new mechanical fuel pump and get rid of the electric one. You need the mechanical one to help out the vacuum wipers any way, and the car will not have over pressure problems either.
     
    302GMC likes this.
  10. Will u b using non detegent oil or has this engine been rebuilt recently ?d
     
  11. BTW u r lucky u get to cruise alone. My DW just bitches the whole time about smells.
     
  12. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    What kind of electric fuel pump? There are 2 kinds, low pressure for carburetor cars and high pressure for fuel injection. As carburetors go the way of the dodo birds it is harder and harder to find a low pressure electric fuel pump. Someone stupid enough to put an electric fuel pump on a 52 Caddy, may be stupid enough to put the wrong one on. If you have enough fuel pressure to launch another Sputnik a regulator won't save you.

    Check the fuel pressure, or put the correct pump on. Should be no more than 4 or 5 PSI at the carb, and 2 pounds would be better. If it is still flooding your carb is junk.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  13. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Cut the crap about non detergent oil. Multigrade detergent oils were available in 52 and recommended by Cadillac, particularly the detergent part. You do not want to sludge up your hydraulic lifters. Speaking of hydraulic lifters, these early OHV V8s were the ones zinc additives were invented for, to prevent wear on their valve lifters which were more heavily loaded than the old flathead motors.

    Use good oil and change the oil and filter frequently if you want the engine to last. If it is already shot never mind.
     
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  14. leon bee
    Joined: Mar 15, 2017
    Posts: 798

    leon bee
    Member

    Are you making sure the choke is clear open?
     
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  15. leon bee
    Joined: Mar 15, 2017
    Posts: 798

    leon bee
    Member

    And, Rusty: Why does having an electric pump on my old Buick make me stupid?
     
  16. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    The high vacuum at idle will cause blue smoke in high mileage engines - can be helped with a set of valve seals you can change with ease. Black would be fuel. Isn't it fouling plugs ?
     
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  17. drew1987
    Joined: Nov 22, 2015
    Posts: 678

    drew1987

    Brad Penn "green oil" or Penzoil VR1 are a few good high zinc oils. Cheap insurance.

    Also the gas station smell used to plague me. It's better now; took the smell a while to go away after miles and miles of adding it to my upholstery.

    A regulator with a gauge will eliminate any guessing about pressure


    Also, rusty: sometime fuel pumps are hard to find. Once I came inches from flying 2000 miles to salt Lake And driving home a 55 Buick century. Before babies came i could do that stuff. Anyway, no one - I mean NO one had a fuel pump for it and a leak there was the only thing wrong with the car. Before I'd have let that be the only reason, I'd have brought an electric pump, some rubber hose, a tube cutter and clamps. Some alligator clips and wire and pointer her east.


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  18. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,715

    carbking
    Member

    A few thoughts:

    (1) Regulators - there are a couple of types: (A) the $29.95 inline dial type available at the local auto parts store which is really useful if you have a strong right (or left) arm, and a rabbit problem in your garden; and (B) the much more expensive ones available generally from speed shops. We have tested in the past a number of the inline dial types for accuracy. These are rated at some volume, say 15 gallons per hour. AT THAT VOLUME, the regulator is fairly accurate with pressure, as pressure is regulated by regulating volume. How many engines use that volume at idle? We found the pressure at idle was the same on both the inlet and outlet sides of the regulator! The more expensive regulators work. A return line directly to the tank will often work better!

    (2) Carburetor installed: Cadillac used both the Carter WCFB and Rochester 4GC in 1952 as original equipment; both should easily handle 4 1/2 ~ 5 psi of fuel pressure IF IN ORIGINAL SERVICABLE CONDITION. Why the word "original" in the previous sentence? The fuel valve in the 1952 Cadillac carburetor had an orifice of 0.099 inch. The fuel valves used in later carburetors of the same type had an orifice of 0.125 inch. Guess which orifice you get in the cheaper rebuilding kits at the local auto parts store? Remember the old cliché "one size fits all, works for none!". Oh, and yes, these valves are the exact same thread and height, and physically interchangeable.

    (3) Carburetor floats: as mentioned by several in this thread, float adjustment is critical to the fuel level in the bowl. However, both the Carter WCFB and the Rochester 4GC have double pontoon floats. Both Carter and Rochester supplied their distributors with special float gauges that measure not only float height, but also the lateral adjustment of the float. While rare, it is possible that wear in the area of the float contacting the float pin, or in the float hanger can allow the float to move laterally far enough that the float pontoon makes contact with the bowl wall, thus creating flooding.

    (4) Carburetor choke: also mentioned by some in this thread. If the choke is not adjusted correctly or is not working correctly, the engine WILL run rich and be difficult to start. The choke butterfly should be in the wide open position (vertical) after maybe 6~10 minutes of idle, or 2 ~ 3 minutes at cruise RPM.

    (5) Electric fuel pumps: there can be circumstances where an electric fuel pump is a useful item (example - the garbage fuel available in Missouri in the often VERY hot Missouri summers) IF PROPERLY INSTALLED. But something to remember when comparing electric pumps to mechanical pumps: the electric pump will produce the maximum pressure at idle, and the pressure can drop based on volume usage, as the electric pump runs at a more or less constant speed. The mechanical pump is connected directly to the engine RPM, thus the pressure is more or less constant and the volume increases with RPM. Engineers really do have reasons for their actions.

    Jon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  19. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,818

    BJR
    Member

    X 2 what carbking said.
     
  20. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I wasn't talking to you, I wasn't talking about Buicks, you aren't the one with the excess pressure, etc.

    As for whether you are stupid, I don't know you that well. But if you are stupid it wasn't the fuel pump that caused it.
     
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  21. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 14,802

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Can't remember my Carters but Rochester 4CG's have float screws on the left side like a Holley to check levels. The top needs to come off to adjust however. Care must be taken with either brand to have both sides the same. They pivot at the needle valve at the center with pretty long arms. Most 52's came with Carters as Rochesters became their replacement at Dealers and then combo use...
     
  22. leon bee
    Joined: Mar 15, 2017
    Posts: 798

    leon bee
    Member

    It's only stupid to put one on a Cadillac? I have a pretty high IQ and always had lectric pumps on my Studebakers. Got one on my Buick, even got a spare on the shelf.
     
  23. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I have a collection of electric fuel pumps I took off old cars, and replaced with the correct engine driven pump. The cars ran much better. The correct pump is usually just as cheap or cheaper and more reliable and lasts longer.

    They are handy for pumping out a gas tank or moving a car that has a bum pump. But it is so long since I used one, I don't think I could even find them.
     
  24. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,056

    Beanscoot
    Member

    The correct mechanical pump for an engine is designed to produce a certain pressure, and it cannot produce more. That's one of its great features.

    This is because the pressure is determined by the main spring pressing against the diaphragm, the actuating arm serves to compress this spring, not to pump the fuel. As the spring is released, it pushes on the diaphragm which pumps the fuel. Also, the diaphragm only moves as much as needed to maintain the pressure in the line, so at idle it moves very little, while under load it will yield a longer stroke. It's really a very elegant mechanical device.

    Using an electric pump that produces too much pressure, then adding a regulator to reduce it, is adding two devices that can fail.

    My 1964 Cadillac came with an electric pump which lasted a few years, when it failed I did with some trouble find a new mechanical one. Of course I should have sourced one at leisure before the electric one failed on the coldest day of winter on the highway many miles from home.
    That Cadillac did not have a fuel return line.
     
  25. SHARKO
    Joined: Mar 7, 2010
    Posts: 84

    SHARKO
    Member

     
  26. SHARKO
    Joined: Mar 7, 2010
    Posts: 84

    SHARKO
    Member

    I have run an electric pump for years on my 57 Olds. engine built in the 1980s. When the Carter died one Sunday I scored a Holley and drove home. On the other hand once the car died in warm up and the pump did not and I washed out the back two piston ring sets! I'm older and wiser now and just got rid of my monster clutch for a nice smooth one. The car is fumy and I'm going to go through the J2 carbs again after 20 years ...And I'm thinking about a mechanical pump. The original looks like the Starship Enterprise. It has an integral vacuum pump which I no longer need. Is there a fuel only pump guaranteed to fit a 57? I saw a mopar pump on an Olds once but I can't risk a cam failure? The electric pump is noisy and
    even regulated may be part of my fumes and shortened cylinder life. The vacuum pump goes ponk ponk ponk and takes up space for my AC project.
    Pat
     
  27. SHARKO
    Joined: Mar 7, 2010
    Posts: 84

    SHARKO
    Member

    That's exactly my problem. If I can make my sweetie happy enough for a 5000 mile ride with a fuel pump it will be great.
    Pat
     
  28. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,056

    Beanscoot
    Member

    The Oldsmobile mechanical pump is available on ebay, and Kanter lists it as well. Plus you can get rebuild kits for your old one, or just get diaphragm material and repair your own.
     

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