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1950s "computerized" fuel injection

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by malaguena, May 16, 2012.

  1. So i came across an article that mentioned the "electrojector" system that was used with a fuel injection setup. It was a fully vacuum tube device that managed your fuel injection, intended for racing applications. Bosch had considered buying them out but decided to build their own system with the new transistors. Outside of the fact it existed, i cant seem to find any other mention or pictures of it.

    Does anyone know about these or how they worked? Od did anyone else ever build such an early managed injection setup? Im dying to find schematics and see just how these worked.
     
  2. R Pope
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 3,309

    R Pope
    Member

    "They didn't work." Not quite the case, they did work, for about six months! A neighbor had one in '58, Mopar paid him to swap to dual fours. He was a licensed mechanic, owned a garage. Most got a recall, though.
     
  3. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 49,876

    squirrel
    Member

    Interesting, probably used an analog computer, so like your TV set back then it needed constant adjustment and repair.

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  4. hmm, thanks so much. Im not a very computer literate guy, but rather technical. Looks like these had vibration issues damaging the vacuum tube that would regulate the solenoids for the injection. It was a 400 dollar option and it looks like they really cheaped it in the design.

    Its odd, they could have easily gone with a mechanical fuel injection that would have been cheaper and well performing, but instead they went with a cheapened version of what they knew would have been a very high perfoming, even if delicate system, for more cost.
     
  5. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 6,996

    Gotgas
    Member
    from DFW USA

    Cheap? Mopar lost money on every one. The theory was way ahead of the available technology in 1958.

    Bendix sold their EFI patents to Bosch, and they own patents for every OEM fuel system built in the past 25ish years.

    Google 'tom white adventurer' for a flood of information about the world's first production EFI system. Its actually pretty ingenious considering it comes from vacuum tube and wax capacitor technology.
     
  6. Seems to me that the Bendix Electrojector was also scheduled to be fitted to the Rambler Rebel in 1957 but i'm not sure that it ever reached any of the production cars.Rambler was in deep financial chaos then so it may have been shelved.I remember reading about it in a 1956 or 57 Motor Trend.
     
  7. All 35 units ever built were recalled according to mopar and refitted with dual carbs.
     
  8. Swifster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,456

    Swifster
    Member

    I had posted these up a couple years back because the arguement was the EFI wasn't traditional... I think the problem was the wax capacitors that were available at the time which failed due to heat. This car was upgraded with modern pieces and from the article I read on it, it definitely pulls HARD!

    '58 DeSoto Adventurer

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  9. Swifster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,456

    Swifster
    Member

    Not completely true. There are a few units still out there (in pieces) for the 392 powered Chyrsler 300D's. If you find pieces they are expensive.
     
  10. aircap
    Joined: Mar 10, 2011
    Posts: 1,608

    aircap
    Member

    Interesting!
    Never heard of it before today.
     
  11. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    There is a difference between electronic and computerized. I haven't studied this system, but I would bet it is electronic, not "computerized".

    Vacuum tubes actually do have some advantages over transistors, but tubes would not be preferable in this application.

    Based on the assorted problems that electronic fuel injection had when it was introduced for real about than 15 years later, I doubt this attempt was much of a threat to the carburetor.
     
  12. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 49,876

    squirrel
    Member

    Our definition of "computer" has changed a lot over the years. At the time this was made, an electronic circuit that took in sensor inputs and provided an output which changed according to what the inputs were doing, was considered to be a computer. Now we insist that it has to be digital...back then, analog computing was still a "new thing".
     
  13. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,757

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    I got in a big argument when I read the article about the 58 fuel injection for a Mopar back then. He was right. This is the first one that I have ever seen. He was a Chevy guy.:D Not very pretty huh?
     
  14. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 11,020

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Pre-64... Gary

    [​IMG]
     
  15. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 49,876

    squirrel
    Member

    more of this I think

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  16. ed_v
    Joined: Jun 2, 2008
    Posts: 240

    ed_v
    Member
    from Kentucky

    My god that car is beautiful!!!!

    Ed
     
  17. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    I understand your point, but I disagree. What you described could be a vintage audio amplifier, furnace controler, burglar alarm, or electrical switch box. Those devices are electronic or electro-mechanical devices, but they are not computers. Computers compute. There is no way this device was taking in data, processing it, and making decisions. At that time it would have taken a room full of vacuum tubes to do that. As you say, it would have been an analog device, but not one capable of doing any data processing or computing.
     
  18. I don't believe there is any application of artificial intelligence as of yet.
    Theses computers are not making decisions, they are following programs. Programs based on 1s and 0s . The processors are are capable of many more 1s and 0s.
    Have the programer input 1+1 = 3 and no computer will ever make a decision that that is incorrect.
     
  19. nosford
    Joined: Feb 7, 2011
    Posts: 561

    nosford
    Member

    Actually came across a schematic for the Rambler system a few years ago, looked like a modern throttle body system except for the computer. Was designed by a company called American Valve if I remembered correctly. Seen that Chrysler article on allpar before, great photos and story.
     
  20. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 49,876

    squirrel
    Member

    The devices you mention all only have one sensor input. I agree that they are not doing any computing. But the old Mopar EFI system has several sensor inputs. The analog computer has to figure out the correct output (injector dwell) based on several inputs, all varying in different ways at the same time. This is a much more complex problem to solve than a simple furnace thermostat, for example.

    I think you are convinced that anything that is processing data, must be digital. Not so. Analog values are data, in fact modern digital EFI converts all the analog sensor inputs to digital values before it processes the data. But it's processing analog data, if you look at the big picture. The old Mopar system processes the analog data using analog computing techniques, such as comparators, integrators, etc.
     
  21. Swifster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,456

    Swifster
    Member

    If I remember correctly, I think the owner at the time was an electrical engineer. The main failing was the 'brain box'. In simplified form, most of what you see on the top of the engine is what is on modern cars now. This was simply ahead of it's time.

    The AMC unit was also a version of the Bendix Electrojet, and would have been installed on the '57 Rebel if it could have been made to work with any reliability.

    I'd give both testicles for a complete Bendix unit for a 300D.
     
  22. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,608

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Somewhere around here I have a 1958 magazine with an article on the new Bendix electronic fuel injection. It is legit, I have had it for years.

    They had it under test and it worked great. The problem was first, the electronics were not completely reliable and second, if the electronics quit the car was dead, period. You had to send for a tow truck and get it towed to a dealer who had someone savvy enough to fix it, of which there were basically none at the time. So they dropped it until they came up with more reliable electronics.

    Bosch bought a license from Bendix, worked on it for a while, and brought out the first EFI car in 1968, the VW Type 3 aka squareback. The electronics were not totally reliable at that time either. My uncle had one new. It was prone to quitting without warning. The mechanic always said "it's the computer - $400". Later they wrapped thick aluminum foil around the wiring to keep out radio interference. I worked on them myself in the 70s and 80s and found the computers were very reliable, I never saw a bad one. There were 4 or 5 control inputs and they could get wonky, usually a bad wire or sensor, easy and cheap to fix.

    I think the first Cadillac Seville in 1975 had the Bosch system which was basically the Electrojector brought up to date. So they did come full circle back to America.
     
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  23. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    In simplest form, yes. However, I picked those examples for a reason. Complex analog audio amplifiers, furnace controllers, burglar alarms, and electrical switch boxes were made, and they weren't the rare exception.


    Exactly, that's my point. If the unit isn't doing any computing it is not a computer.:)


    I didn't say thermostat, I said "furnace controller". I have seen industrial controllers that have/monitor multiple inputs and are fairly complex analog devices, but they aren't computers.


    I understand what an analog computer is. My father did electronics work and from pretty early on I was exposed to all sorts of now obsolete technology. Old comptometers/calculators still fascinate me. When I did development testing I worked with several different kinds of electronic analog computing devices. I never said one word about digital, or computers having to be digital. Maybe that's the common perception, but you didn't get that from anything I posted.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2012
  24. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    I saw one of the 58 Chrysler FI recall cars in the 70s, abandoned at a body shop in Elllington Ct. My ex bro in law showed it to me at his uncles lot behind the shop.

    It had special rear quarter tri-color 300 emblems that said Fuel Injection. One quarter was smashed in years prior, and that's why it was parked. We popped the hood to find dual quads. looked in the trunk and the only thing in there was the trunk mounted A/C.

    Right after that, we saw a Motor Trend, or Car and Driver article, on singer Richard Carpenters Chrysler 300 collection, and it said "13 1958 Chryslers were sold, all recalled, but one car did not come back in for carbs". That's what they said. Just a magazine article.


    I lost track of the Black 2dr ht we saw. It was brought there by a NY antique car collector, but work never progressed, like his other much older mopar cars that the shop did.
     
  25. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 49,876

    squirrel
    Member

    I really can't figure out what you're trying to say.

    Sounds like a mysterious semantics game about the word "computer".
     
  26. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 6,996

    Gotgas
    Member
    from DFW USA

    I wouldn't... but that's not to say they aren't out there. ;)

    (NOT MINE)

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    There is an access hole in the trunk floor for the electric fuel pump. There are a few other differences as well. And here is an example of the emblem you mention.

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    There are several Bendix Electrojector threads here and on forwardlook.net. Seem to be the same guys posting in them each time. :D Also, several of the cars have turned up over the years with Tom White's Adventurer being the most famous one and the only one with EFI under the hood (that I am aware of).
     
  27. Chrisbcritter
    Joined: Sep 11, 2011
    Posts: 1,905

    Chrisbcritter
    Member

    Coolest emblem EVER! Looks like a sign from a '50s drive-in restaurant.
     
  28. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    This isn't complicated. I disagreed with what you posted and explained why. You said I inferred or said some things I didn't and I clarified that. Now you state that you "really can't figure out" what I am trying to say. It's nothing more, simple as that. Nothing "mysterious", no "semantics game".Sometimes one or both contestants don't understand each other, sometimes people disagree.
     
  29. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    Thanks for the pic of the 300D FI emblem....at least I now know my memory is not totally gone. I recalled the 3 colors, but did not remember what it really looked like.
     

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