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1940 brakes on model a spindle problems

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by hobbyjp, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    I've been gathering parts and started to put everything together and it seems that my 31 spindle doesn't protrude far enough through the 1940 ford hub. I just put new outer races B1217t which should be the same for 28-48 and im using the bearing from the 31 hub which should also fit all those years. I made the backing plate hole smaller by welding in a spacer to make up the difference instead of using the fragile piston ring spacer. I have a spacer between the spindle and the inside bearing. the spindle nut doesn't go on far enough to reach the cotter pin hole and a decent amount of the nut is not on the spindle threads. if I go any tighter there's not enough clearance for the drum to move freely. here's some pictures.

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  2. 1931modela
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 262

    1931modela
    Member
    from montana

  3. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    Somethings wrong somewhere. nothing Ive read says the front backing plates have to be machined down like the rears but that would give me more clearance. Or is this not a 40 drum and hub? or the wrong drum on a 40 hub? also there is no brake hardware currently installed on the backing plates. I was just putting everything together so I could have a guide for drilling the backing plate holes
     
  4. BobF
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 230

    BobF
    Member
    from Poway, CA

    I did this way back in the fifties on my first Model A using the store bought rings made for the purpose. I think there were two rings per side, the large one to center the backing plate, which you made and a smaller one which slid over the spindle itself to space the inner bearing and allow the grease seal to work. Is the seal going over the spacer OK, allowing the inner bearing all the way back?
    From the pix it looks like the outer bearing/race is not in far enough. The keyed washer should end up about even with the outer part of the drum with enough clearance around to allow the dust cap to be pushed in.
     

  5. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,800

    flatford39
    Member

    Boy, where do you start. You need to lose the Model A spindles and replace with 37 thru 48 spindles. You also need to upgrade the Kingins so that they match your spindles. If you are running 46 spindles you need the 46 king pin set.

    The model A front axle is the best axle you will ever find to build your ride around. You really need to just upgrade it including the spindles so you can take advantage of "modern braking".
     
  6. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    I bought the spacer for the inner bearing. The spacer as far as I know goes in between the spindle and the inner bearing pushing the inner bearing up against the race. without the spacer where I have it nothing else pushes the bearing against the race. the spindle mates fine with the back of the backing plate. The spacer in those pics are the same ones that I have. I had the piston rigs ones too but they cracked.
     
  7. Why? Adding juice brakes to A spindles have been done since juice brakes came out.
     
  8. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    Flatford39 Ive never heard that 37-48 spindles where mandatory thats why they everyone sells the spacers, the only difference that I know of between the later spindles is that the spindle itself has the seat further up and the model a spindle has it further back thats why you use the spacer to make up the difference. is the 37-48 spindle longer?
     
  9. TERPU
    Joined: Jan 2, 2004
    Posts: 2,302

    TERPU
    Member

    It's just an easier swap with less parts. But it works just the same either way.




    Tim
     
  10. 117harv
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 6,590

    117harv
    Member

    I have seen thin and thick castle nuts, maybe some thinner ones...just a thought.
     
  11. I think we need some pictures of the inside. What is happening shouldn't be happening. The first thing that comes to mind is that you had a set of spindles with the bearing spacer on and not noticing it added another bearing spacer.

    Charlie Stephens
     
  12. I know the reason many guys go with the 37-48 spindles (cheaper kingpins, spindles designed for more weight, ect) My point was since he was updating to "modern brakes" (juice brakes) why does he NEED to go for the extra cost of the spindles since he is running THE SAME BRAKES on either spindle. Thats kind of why that kit has been around since the 30s.
     
  13. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    Ill snap some more pics
     
  14. kirby1374
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 427

    kirby1374
    Member

    Does it make a difference about the hub? Those look like 48s with the hub on the outside of the drum.
     
  15. hotrodarchaeologist
    Joined: Dec 4, 2007
    Posts: 511

    hotrodarchaeologist
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Maine

    I was wondering the same thing, those are later hubs/drums...
     
  16. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    The inner bearing that was in the hubs is timken 14130 09719 the inner part of the bearing isnt touching the spindle when its on so I'm guessing that isnt right.
    heres some pics

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So could these be 48 hubs and drums? thats awesome if they are because I was told they were 40's and got them through the classifieds here.
     
  17. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    If these are 48's can they still be used or am I back on the search for 40 hubs and drums? everything I see says that its the same races and bearings from 28-48 but the inner race and bearing on these hubs are different than the original model a ones. the inside diameter on the bearings that where in these drums is larger than the model a bearings.
     
  18. TERPU
    Joined: Jan 2, 2004
    Posts: 2,302

    TERPU
    Member

    If you use 39-48 Car drums everything should work. At least they always have for me on my stuff. Not to say there isn't a combo that doesn't but it's all Ford stuff and with the spacer rings you should be ok. There is no need to change to 39-48 spindles as the model A stuff has been used forever, the later is just easier. Where did you get the bearings from? Just a suspicion but they could be the wrong ones.


    Tim
     
  19. I can't see the pictures for some reason, but did you take off the A grease seal rings?
     
  20. hobbyjp
    Joined: Mar 14, 2006
    Posts: 330

    hobbyjp
    Member
    from socal

    I took the grease seal out. ok so if there's a possibility they will work something still needs to be done for them to fit right, I'm thinking the inner race needs to be replaced along with the bearing so that it is the size that fits 28-48 but either which way the drums are still hitting the backing plates and some room needs to be made. has anyone put 48 drums with 40 backing plates? can the edge of the drum and the lip on the backing plate be shaved down similar to fitting 40 brakes to the rear of an A axle?
     
  21. Could they be truck hubs/drums?
     
  22. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    There is no deference between truck and car drums/hubs if they are the 12" ones ,bigger trucks used bigger drums. 39 drums are wide 5 pattern,40-48 are 5 on 5-1/2 and will work with any car-PU backing plate 39-48. Wheel bearing are all the same 28-48 so first off you have some wrong bearings. Get the correct bearings installed and see where you are at. Once in a while you will get some interference between backing plate drum, a bit of grinding will fix this. Inside or outside hub does not matter as to fit ,either will work . I did my first early Ford mechanical switch to juice in 1961 and many since with no issues. The OP has some wrong bearings to start with.
     
  23. Looking online, the bearings were the same to 48 on the cars, but 47 on the trucks (48 went to the F1). His bearing is a bit larger than the spindle according to the pic. A 48 car ID is 1.1895", but a 48 truck (1/2 ton) is 1.3125".

    Not saying thats what it is, but maybe a place to look?? Or did the 48 trucks use a slip over the hub drum?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  24. Take the bearing off and find out why it is not seating back to the spindle. Probably a burr. Note that it is also (from the picture) cocked at an angle.

    Charlie Stephens
     
  25. I can see your pictures now and, like the others have said, I think you need to get the right bearings, then the stuff should fit together like it always has.
     
  26. DICK SPADARO
    Joined: Jun 6, 2005
    Posts: 1,887

    DICK SPADARO
    Member Emeritus

    Hey I'm voting with Rich b, Everything just bolts together but if you leave the stock grease seal on the spindle it prevents the bearings from seating. The hub grease seal hits the old model A grease seal that was not removed and nothing fits. Check your spindle if you have a cup shaped sheet metal spacer at the backing plate face of the spindle thats the old A grease seal and it needs to be removed. Pop it off with a screw driver and reinstall everything again.
     
  27. Another thing that seem strange has to do with the 4 mounting holes on the backing plate.
    When you do this swap (been there, done that) those 4 holes need to be filled and drilled or elongated. When you do so, they end up very close to the spindle hole as if there is barely enough meat on the backing plate to make a complete round hole.
    You seem to have quite a bit around each hole. Is the center hole as large as it should be.

    The center hole spacer may be suspect.
     
  28. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    F-1 brakes were A. Bendix and B. 11" . And AIRC were outside over the hubs and retained with rivets.
     
  29. Maybe I'm missing something on this thread, but as far as I know, to mount the 40 brakes on earlier spindles, you need the 1940 brakes that were a hub behind design. The studs from the hub came through the drum, and the wheel mounted against the face of the drum.

    What you have look like later drums with the hub on the outside.

    I'd imagine that your spindle is too short because the hub is sitting on top of the drum and is spacing everything out.

    Some references that might help:

    [​IMG]

    http://www.slideshare.net/Fordlovers/identifying-19401948-ford-car

    http://www.speedwaymotors.com/12-x-2-Brake-Drum-for-Bendix-Style-1937-48-Ford-Brakes,5847.html

    http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Early-Ford-Front-Hub,5844.html


    Good luck!
     

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