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Projects 1940 American Bantam Woody Convertible Build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by rg171352, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 4,067

    RodStRace
    Member

    What is the vision for the body's shape?

    Here's a few pics of a Bantam woodie wagon.
    https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1939-AMERICAN-BANTAM-WOODY-WAGON-202964
    Will it be like this but without the roof and window pillars?
    Or are you attempting more similar to a roadster?
    [​IMG]

    I'd like to see a photo, drawing or something to define the expected result.
    How much of the original, restored cowl will be retained?
    How much 'curve' are you expecting to include? This will greatly impact the amount of wood working needed. A rectangular box is much simpler, but will look less finished and 'homemade'.

    A couple examples of Fords
    NICE
    [​IMG]
    More of a box
    [​IMG]

    I would expect that with the floor and frame both flexing, you will need either a wood or steel support around the open top and the door openings.
    A simple test is to take a complete cardboard box and cut out the top and a door in each side. You will find it becomes quite floppy. You will need structure across the back of the doors (maybe a "U" shape that attaches at the floor under the seats and up each door. Then another "U" around each door opening. Also a "V" behind the seats from the top of each quarter above the wheel well to the floor as seen in the T&C and many sedans and coupes. This would be easier to locate by cutting out one in steel from a donor car and creating a flange to bolt to the quarters and either weld or bolt to the floor.

    Since you mention using convertible doors as inner structure and keeping the windows, I'd imagine this will end up more like the T&C with an inner steel skeleton and wood outer skin than the earlier 'woodies' or a coachbuilt wooden body.
    My own level of wood working is very low and something like this seems a very daunting task indeed!
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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  2. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 4,067

    RodStRace
    Member

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  3. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    RodStRace,

    Thank you again for your thoughts, photos, and links. I am planning to base my body on the shape of the Bantam Hollywood. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/media/6460914705_25203d9ea6_z.528299/ I am, however, hoping to alter the shape of it a bit to appear more like the convertible coupe which appeared in Bantam sales literature. I will edit this post with photos later on. I've never seen the Ford roadster which you posted above, there are a lot of things I like about that car. Do you have any other photos or information on that car?

    I haven't seen a lot of the information in those links previously. One thing which I would love more detail on is making finger joints without special tools. While I have seen some technical information on making them utilizing a table saw, I haven't really found exactly what I'm looking for yet.

    I am definitely thinking of using the T&C and Sportsman convertibles as patterns for how to construct this car.

    Beyond just wanting to build a wooden Bantam convertible, I want to do it within the confines of a pre-50's parts bin. The car I want to build is one that a well-to-do Bantam owner may have commissioned the Roy Evans run American Bantam Car Co. to build from an early 1940 station wagon which either met an unfortunate fate or was obsoleted on the estate. This would be a time when Bantam had already destroyed all of its sheet metal dies and sold off the remnants of its engine tooling while still held a large inventory of assorted parts from which it supposedly built several complete cars during the war. Also, this would be a time when Mifflinburg Body Company was still in business; and American Bantam Car Co. maintained its scrappy attitude toward picking up income producing jobs and building custom vehicles.

    Interestingly, in 1940, Bantam only built around 40 roadster as the body style was supposedly considered outmoded. There is a Bantam, registered as a 1948, which was built from parts sourced from the factory surplus after the war. This car features a roadster body and supposedly a rolling chassis which served as a display piece in the factory administration building. With the Ford Sportsman convertible originally displayed in October of 1945, it may have served as inspiration for a rebody for the special order car where the owner didn't want an outmoded body style, but rather wished to have the best and freshest Bantam on the road.
     
  4. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 4,067

    RodStRace
    Member

    The Bantam convertible coupe would be less 'curved' than the roadster in the quarters.
    [​IMG]
    The doors would require less curve at the tops too. You might want to post this profile picture to the Photoshop thread to have some artists work up a plan.
    If you have a useable body, it could be repaired and have a vinyl overlay on the metal and wood framing added around the edges. It wouldn't be a 'true' woodie, but would take a LOT less time and money.
    Something like this one I found a picture of
    [​IMG]

    If you go with the "well-heeled customer" style, it would be more like the fully wood framed body at the bottom of the previous post, using professional cabinet or boat craftsmen to do the design and fabrication. While there are always people who desire a custom bodied vehicle and have the means, it seems likely they would start with a more expensive base vehicle.
    This concept could have happened if a craftsman decided that he wanted to do his own body on the car he had. Say Franz, the Danish pattern maker at the shipyard decided he would rather build a fresh wooden body rather than fix the rust and repaint his beloved prewar economy car. He used cut-offs and old forms from work and built it in his spare time. It would also be a calling card for his skills in the postwar economy as shipbuilding tapered off.
    http://darkroom.baltimoresun.com/20...y-ships-in-baltimore-during-world-war-ii-era/
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
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  5. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Sadly, I don't have a better Bantam body for this project. That is part of what inspired me to take this project on. I am planning to use wood for much of the car from above the floor and behind the a-pillar. The photo you posted of the Phaeton style body is nice, but I may save that project for a few other Bantam convertible parts that are lurking in my shop. For now, I am hoping to indulge in the curves the two seater offers. It will probably be more difficult and will take a lot of patience; but I'm willing to give this project a whirl as the end result will likely be worth it.

    I like your thought of a skilled craftsman building the car as a calling card for his own skills. That may be more likely in the grand scheme of things than my original idea. Then again, the back story of the car is fantasy which can change every now and again. The most important part of this project is ensuring a high quality of workmanship and a fine quality of materials used. Hopefully those two things show through in the finished product.

    I am finally making some headway on the dolly which this thing will be built on. Hopefully it will be finished by tonight. If so, I will post some photos.
     
  6. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    After buying the wood for this dolly project at the beginning of April, it's finally done!

    There were some obstacles in getting everything to fit together, especially with regard getting the steel caps to slide onto the vertical 4x4's. Once I disassembled everything, I began assembling it from the top down. It ended up fitting exactly where I wanted it to and the major dimensions are exactly what I wanted. Although it ended up being a few inches taller than originally intended, I still have a lot of comfortable working space and can get underneath to do whatever I need.

    It has been almost four months coming, but I am finally at a point where I can begin meaningful work on this project again. No fiddling with dash knobs for a little while!

    Also, there is a way to include a shelf at the front end of the dolly in the event I need to add some sort of ballast to keep it from tipping rearward as the body takes shape. I still need to add the front engine mount so I can mock up an engine in the frame at some point.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  7. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    As we already know, Bantam was not doing too well when the Tremulis designed Hollywood and Riviera were entering production. The 1940 model year saw the intentional phase out of the traditional open cars, the roadster and speedster. That year out of nearly 1,000 cars produced, only around 40 roadsters made it out of Butler while the factory built four times as many cabriolets.

    What allowed Bantam to survive was its tenacity and resourcefulness. It was a scrappy company that knew how to stretch every penny. These photos show the inner fender and b-pillar taken from the Rusty Riviera which has made a few appearances in this thread. If you look at some prior photos which I have posted, the standard inner Bantam fender wells are a very different beast. They are a fairly symmetrical unit with a much shorter arc. The Riviera/Hollywood stampings are much longer and graceful pieces.

    An interesting aside is that the Speedsters, which have essentially the same rear body as the Riviera are built using the earlier/more abrupt Bantam wheel well. Since the wheel wells are responsible for supporting the rear body, I'm not sure what Bantam was thinking. Maybe the longer arches allow for more support of the rear portion of the body or allow for a better attachment of the fenders. Any thoughts?

    In any event, this is what Hollywoods left the factory with, so this is what I'd like to emulate. As you can see, my inner fender is in very poor shape. You could patch it and attempt to reuse it. However, for something responsible for so supporting the entire rear clip of the car, I think that may be an awful idea. I was considering trying to make a pair of inner fender wells, as it would be a terrific learning experience and would yield a pair of substantially stronger pieces.

    Then, it dawned on me, I had seen this profile in a stamping before. The inner fenderwells share the same stampings as Bantam "pontoon" style fenders. They appear to not have had the wired edges, were trimmed, were not punched (or drilled) for mounting holes, and had a large piece of metal welded over the wheel opening. In the photos below, you can see a Bantam fender near this wheel well and see how they did it at the factory. It's pretty ingenious that they thought of doing this. So, I am left with a few options. I could try to reinvent the wheel and try to beat a few pieces of metal into submission or I could find a nice pair of Bantam coupe rear fenders to re-purpose.

    Once I remove the inner fender, I will work on dissecting the b-pillar and rocker panel to learn what the factory made to support the door opening. I'm thinking that that will end up giving me a decent idea of why Bantam did what it did, or at least a decent idea of what I should consider installing in my own project.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  8. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Back around 2013, I first heard that there was a heavy cast piece which would support the body from sagging in the middle. After years of waiting, I can finally present you with some photos of the iron inner structure that frames the perimeter running between the A and B pillars. As it turns out, this steel frame is actual a series of 4 cast pieces. I have been hoping that this frame was merely c-channel and steel stock so it would be simple to reproduce.

    As you can see, the piece that runs up the B pillar is fairly thin in places and is not a very clean casting. This may be the result of how Bantam produced the parts initially and the poor condition of the examples I have. Seeing how the metal has deteriorated and how thin it may have been initially, I can understand a little more of why a few people with Rivieras and Hollywoods which have had their floor replaced have complained about their doors not closing properly again. The amount of scaling between a rocker panel outer skin and the iron makes it appear as though it can deteriorate to a large extent while being almost undetectable.

    In any event, it looks as though Bantam must have built these cars from the same sheet metal package they used for their woody wagon builds. However, they added a different B pillar piece and the wheel house pictured in the post above. My thought is that they pieced this iron together inside of the already assembled sheet metal rocker panels and welded everything together as they went along. It appears that this brace was spot welded into the rocker panel and the b pillar insert was welded to the tail end of the rocker support and again finally to the top of the B pillar. Then it appears this was all closed in with the inner fender being welded to the rear side of the B pillar, unlike the usual configuration where the inner fender was welded to the inside portion of the B pillar.

    This is all a bit of a tangent. The crux of all of this is rambling is that I need to devise a decent steel assembly to keep this car together. That's were my mind will be for the next week or so. I'll post a few more concerns in a follow up.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  9. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Over the past year, I have been attempting to reproduce cross-members for Bantam Commercial vehicles and four passenger convertibles. All of the other models used some variation of C-channel as the rear cross-member, a simple solution. The cross-member I needed was 1 5/16″ steel tube, bent in four places, and flattened at the ends. On trucks, it served as part of the spare tire holder and on the passenger cars, it served as a rear cross-member that didn’t interfere with the rear seats. The tubular support should ideally also be substantially stronger than the thin c-channel which was originally used.

    With light kinking in each of the bends, I figured this is something which should be easily made. I considered a Harbor Freight pipe bender, but decided against it due to the small radius of the bends. I contacted people who built race car roll cages, they didn’t want to touch it. Thinking of universal engine swap cross-members, I even contacted a number of aftermarket companies, who also wanted to stay far away from the project. One race car chassis company offered to do it, but I never heard back from them after sending over a few photos of the part.

    I finally found a company willing to take on the project. Due to the tight radius of each of the bends, they had to make each cross-member from three pieces. They made the bends and welded them together. 1 5'16" pipe was not available to this shop, but they used 1" tube which had an OD of 1 1/4". The wall thickness is substantially thicker and the main bar has a heft to it which the original was missing.

    I still need to free the bent and deteriorated cross-member from the Sportsman's frame so I can install this unit and weld it together. Although it took a while, I think the wait was worth it and it couldn't have been finished at a better time. Now, hopefully, besides being the correct one for the station wagon chassis, this cross-member will add a bit of rigidity to the rear of the frame to make sure it is all nicely tied together with the new wooden body mounted.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  10. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Well, this project may be getting more HAMB friendly. Thanks to Greg's suggestion that I look into Judson superchargers, the mention from another club member that they wouldn't consider an OD without some sort of power adder, and the thought that the wooden body may add more weight to the car than the original engine would be comfortable pulling, I am considering ditching the current engine in favor of something a bit more exciting in the future.

    The present engine will likely power the Sportsman until the other engine can be built, but I am eager to share more details once I confirm that this detour will in fact be possible.
     
  11. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,661

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Hmm, interesting possibilities. What was the original Bantam 4 cylinder based on, and was a later version used in anything, military maybe?
     
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  12. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 4,067

    RodStRace
    Member

    Try to grab every bit of info you can on the body shape you intend to copy in hardwood.
    http://www.honestcharley.com/garage/cars-for-sale/1938-american-bantam-roadster/
    I'd even suggest trying to do a basic outline in cheap pine first, to confirm fit and dimensions.
    If you look up coachbuilding, they often use wooden 'bucks' to define the shape for the fabricated metal bodys. While this is not what you are doing, they do work in wood to tight tolerances and may have some valuable tips for your project.
     
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  13. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Blowby, the original Bantam was based off of the early American Austin and English Austin 7 engine. The 40 Bantam engine had a number of design features which rendered it a bit superior on paper. Along the way, Bantam and Austin engines were used to power at least pumps and boats. The marine conversion, the Brennan I.M.P. was actually used during the war to power some Link flight trainers (although I've never seen a photo or found more details on that besides a few lines on the internet that I find every few years). The I.M.P. was built in New York until about 1972.

    RodStRace, You're absolutely right. I had considered trying to rough out the shape from styrofoam, but as I get closer to doing it, it seem like a terrible idea. Using a less expensive wood could be the way to go. I would get a better idea of the construction techniques I would need to use to make everything fit together and the properly strategy to make the wood properly follow the contours I need it to. Thank you for the great suggestion. I'll look for some photos of the wooden bucks and frames used in coach building. There are some photos of the wood framing for some high end 30's cars that show the intricate detail of something that will never be seen once the car is finished. Unbelievable craftsmanship, hidden forever.
     
  14. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    While spare time has been at a premium, I realized that cold weather is coming soon and certain things need to be done before everything has to move back inside. Not wanting to deal with a lot of particulate matter from grinding the paint and ancient body work underneath, I decided to use airplane stripper to remove decades of paint from the cowl. I know this body had a lot of leadwork done to it, and I don't want to breathe that in or have someone blast it and expose them to it either. Media blasting also comes with its own perils, such as potentially warping the sheet metal, removing some of its thickness, and causing a scared top surface. These perils probably change depending on the media being used, so I am just speaking in generalities.

    My plan was to apply chemical stripper to the body outside, and give it time to soak through the paint. Once it has soaked for a bit, I have a razor blade scraper to try to take off as much as possible. In the past, I've used the brush on stripper, but this time I decided to go with the aerosol. It doesn't really seem to apply itself to the paint in a heavy enough coating to penetrate enough layers of the paint. I probably have about five hours invested in the stripping the cowl so far and the results are okay on the half of the cowl I have been stripping. There is still a lot of stripping and left scraping to do to get down to bare metal.

    You may wonder why I like doing things in halves rather than working on the whole cowl at a time. For me, it gives me a smaller work piece to concentrate on so that the task doesn't become daunting while allowing me a continual ability to compare my completed work with what the work piece looked like originally. Once one side is done, I end up with something inspiring for working on the other side.

    Here are a few progress photos. I will say, doing this is about as exciting as watching paint paint dry; however it is nice to see the layers of paint and the nice shape of the cowl sheet metal (so far). The drivers side does have some brazing on the bottom beading, but it's not as bad as I expected.

    Also, this dolly has been very useful so far.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  15. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 4,067

    RodStRace
    Member

    Looking good! Maybe as exciting as watching paint bubble (if you're lucky)!
    You might want to cover that up with a coat of something to prevent rusting over the winter.
    While there are expensive bare metal protectants
    http://www.roadsters.com/gibbs/
    http://www.ecs-rpm.com/
    you probably want to start saving for the ash wood for your frame ($$$).
    I'd suggest a good primer (2K or catalyzed) for now. Follow the instructions for neutralizing the stripper and then scuff and shoot the primer. Make sure to use the proper safety equipment for the hazardous paint! I've found that auto parts store cans of primer don't really stop rust that well unless top coated. It may be easier/cheaper for you to just do a Rustolium quickie prime/paint instead. It will be strip and bodywork/refinish either way.

    Body bucks might be a way to help define the body shape and make changes if you aren't going to do 3D CAD work. It could be covered with tape, shrink wrap (think shipping wrap) or even go as far as something Ed Roth did, mix up batches of plaster of Paris with vermiculite (to make it easier to shape and lighter) and hand form the body. You could finalize the shape, then notch where the framing will be and fit it to the shape. Lots of time and effort, but cheaper than farming it out or making something many times before it's 'right'.

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/543739354989783306/

    This guy is a whole different direction than what you are doing, but you may see something in his MANY videos that will work for you when it's too cold out in the shop.

    I think his use of a gantry could be replicated by making a grid pattern on the floor and a basic frame over the body to confirm with each side is identical using a level and plumb bob.


    http://www.ratfink.com/ed-roth-cars.php
    Note that there is another thread here on the HAMB of a guy that built a recreation of the Mysterion and has a book out. I haven't bought it yet, but it may include his body building process.

    also
    http://www.hotrodders.com/scratch-built/Body:_An_Introduction_to_Scratch_Building

    and this one (probably a LOT of others out there)
    http://www.austin7.org/Technical Articles/Bending Ash Frames/
     
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  16. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    RodStRace - The Ed Roth process was very creative and I always thought it was very interesting. Thank you for all of the links. The gantry idea is very good, I remember reading about the designers of the Tucker employing a similar idea. I'm a bit short on time at the moment and would like to give your comments a proper reply and adequate thought.

    Actually, everything is so hectic at this moment that I am just going to leave the attached photo here without opening it or saying much more than that it may greatly change the course of this project.
     

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  17. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,619

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    Ok, lemme guess... a brick of $20 bills... or one of those Rat Fink shifter knobs you have to put on a 4-foot lever
     
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  18. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    BuiltFerComfort, Close on the first count, closer on the second. Here is another hint:
     

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  19. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Okay, maybe that's more than a hint. I picked up a Judson blower. The drive line is possibly going to be a little fancier. If all ends up going well, the blue Brennan is on its way out and the red Brennan is on its way in. More details to follow, but I will say the Judson will likely be mounted to the red Brennan as will a T-84 based overdrive unit.
     
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  20. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Here are few photos of the blower resting on the blue Brennan so you can see the the relative size of the blower in comparison with the engine. I found the blower on Facebook, and is the first item I have ever bought there. It is supposedly an NOS unit for an Austin Sprite which would have about the same output as the blower designed for the 36 hp VW. While it came with the tensioner pulley and bracket, all of the manifolds are missing. However, for this build, that's not really too big of a deal and will allow me a greater deal of freedom in getting this to interface with the red Brennan engine.

    I can't remember if I've gone through the differences between the red and blue Brennans, but I will at a later point. Once I do, I think you'll appreciate the use of the red unit with the supercharger. This will add a significant amount of work to the project, but it will hopefully be a worthwhile endeavor.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  21. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    I'm still stripping paint off of the cowl. This is painstaking! Armed with Jabsco and a razor blade scraper, I have brushed more goop onto this cowl than I originally expected. Wrist muscles are certainly getting a workout as I carefully work the paint off of the beading and out of stamped crevices.

    In spite of the tedius nature of this job, it is rewarding seeing the multiple layers of paint melt away, exposing fine details of some unblemished steel and original spot welds. As more paint comes off, I can get a better idea of how Hayes originally built this body and how I will be taking it apart. So far, the steel has some staining, some old welds/brazes, and some other repairs. The number of coats of colored paint and the thickness of the primer betray that this car had a lot of work put into it at one point. I'm thankful for all of that work which replaced the original top coat which was usually put over bare steel, allowing for the body to fade into rust.

    Four years ago I knew this would be a difficult project, however when I first started considering this project I don't think I really knew what I would be putting into it. Thank you all for following along, sharing your thoughts, imparting your wisdom, and continually encouraging!
     

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  22. Peanut 1959
    Joined: Oct 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,180

    Peanut 1959
    Member

    Keep it up. I'm anxious to see the transformation!
     
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  23. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,476

    goldmountain

    I've been following this Bantam project with interest because I have a 1934 Austin Ruby (English car). What piqued my interest is the mention of overdrive transmission. I have one that would probably work great for you and I'm more than willing to give it away for the cost of shipping. Anyhow, for my car I am planning to swap in a Geo Metro 3cylinder attached to a Suzuki Samurai transmission. Now early on in my parts gathering, I bought a Samurai tranny at the local swap meet. Problem is, I bought it before I found an engine and it doesn't mate up. Later I found the correct tranny which fits a 1.3L Samurai. This odd tranny is very similar to the correct one in layout (the case splits horizontally with cast in bellhousing) and I know the guy I bought from so I believe it is indeed a Samurai unit but probably from an earlier lower horsepower car. It is smaller than the one I eventually found, very small and light so probably more than sufficient for a blown Bantam engine. Now if someone could walk me through the process of posting pictures of it online, I'd be glad to give it away.
     
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  24. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Peanut, Thanks! Me too! :D

    GoldMountain- I would love to see some of your Ruby. That sounds like it will be an interesting build. I'll send you a PM to ask more details about the Samurai transmission.

    On another note, more paint has been stripped and I'm really hoping to be done with this messy job soon. Although I think I've gotten to be pretty adept at stripping paint goop with a razor blade, it's time to start honing other skills.
    Basically, it'll be nice to move along to something a bit more fulfilling and less noxious.

    I want to run some more stripper over the vertical portions of the cowl where it attaches to the a pillar, around the cowl vent, the cowl vent, the A pillar, and the B pillar. Once I can see the spot welds and have some bright places where I can weld supports onto, the stripping portion will be complete and the next phase of this project will begin.
     
  25. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,476

    goldmountain

    I felt a need to further research just what transmission I was offering to give away. Turns out, it is from a 1985 or earlier Suzuki Samurai but unfortunately it is only a 4 speed. On a positive note, the thing weighs under 30lbs. and is 20" long. You would be stuck with the expense of making an adapter plus the problem of hooking on a Suzuki flywheel. I'm still trying to figure out how to post the pictures. This one shows the Geo 3 cylinder/ Samurai trans going for a trial fit in the Ruby. Now the transmission I'm using is just a bit bigger but it is an overdrive. By using the 3 cylinder, obviously no adapters are needed but you would lose the Bantam engine. However, with this setup, you won't be an obstruction to traffic, especially if you add a Judson blower. In my case, with the front of the engine just clearing the front crossmember, there is just a slight bend in the bottom of the firewall. The big thing is the distributor which hangs off the back of the head. This will need an enclosure of some sort but it is clearly high enough to not create problems within the cab. I'll be hooking this up to a narrowed Ford 9" rear end with 4.56:1 gears. The overkill rear end because it was cheap having been previously in a ProStreet car which is out of fashion. From my calculations, a low gear ratio will be necessary with this little engine but the overdrive should make it liveable on the highway. Anyhow, in my case this is very speculative since I won't be working on this car until I finish off other ones but just had to stuff the engine in just to see how it fits. It has been sitting in the car on two pieces of plywood for a couple of years now. Let me know if you want further information on this particular engine/transmission combination. IMG_0698.JPG IMG_0705.JPG IMG_0708.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

    rg171352 likes this.
  26. Peanut 1959
    Joined: Oct 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,180

    Peanut 1959
    Member

    Where would that combo place the shifter?
     
  27. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,476

    goldmountain

    Peanut 1959 likes this.
  28. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,476

    goldmountain

    Since Peanut is interested, check out suzuki G10 3cylinder project on the MX5 MiataForum. Fujioko does a great job of describing this setup. My only caution is do not assume that a Geo Tracker transmission is the same as Samurai. Ask me how I know. You could as well ask me how come I have an earlier Samurai trans to give away. I realize that a Suzuki swap isn't as HAMB appropriate as stuffing in a hemi, but it sure does fit better. To appease the critics we would be limited to swapping in Crosleys and V8 60's. The only things that Fujioko does that aren't necessary are shifter relocation and the Gilmer belt drive distributor.
     
  29. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Gold Mountain,

    Sorry for the delay in getting to you. That is a very interesting project you have. The packaging and weight of that combination is something that you will definitely be thankful for as the car comes together. I love the idea that you don't have to modify much metal to get it to fit nicely under the hood. Does the transmission interfere with the driveshaft tunnel at all?

    I believe there was a 1933 American Austin that went up for auction in the north west which had a Geo Metro engine in it. It looked like a fun car to drive but I don't know too many details about it. You definitely have a good idea here. While I never have done too much research on the topic, the Metro I3 engine is apparently a stout piece of equipment. It seems that depending on the model, Metros weighed in at around 1,600 lbs and were able to squeeze around 45 MPG from a factory tuned 55 hp engine. Reading an article on Jalopnik, a proud metro owner was excited that he could lift his motor out my hand, and was excited by the possibilities offered by his Suzuki built gas sipper.

    Around 2007 there were articles about the Metros attracting a lot of attention for their fuel sipping and their skyrocketing prices as people realized how higher prices at the pumps could hurt their wallets. Somehow, the nation was becoming fonder of a car which it had cast off years earlier; something which it had done with Bantams years earlier. The parallels between these Metros and the Austin derivatives are quite fascinating. Fusing the two together really seems like a fitting way to hop up an Austin for modern driving.

    Although the Metro engine has significantly more power than the original engine you are replacing, the 4.56:1 gears in the rear will likely be something you appreciate; especially with the overdrive. I agree, you shouln't be an obstruction to traffic at all with that engine and trans combo.

    I wish that the photos on the MX5 forum would load for me so I could get a better idea of what Fujioko does. I've made assumptions about parts, so I appreciate the heads up on the Geo Tracker transmission. While I guess the use of a Suzuki swap isn't HAMB per se, the creativity in your project definitely is as is the ingenuity you are investing into it.

    I hope you get to work on this project soon as it will be a fascinating journey to follow. I'm eager to see the final results of your hard work and to hear reports on how it handles. My sportsman won't be the last Bantam project I work on, hopefully. However, I want this one to be replete with mostly Bantam bits and period correct bits.

    While the Metro engine and trans may not fit this project exactly, I definitely have my eyes on a way to improve another growing batch of cast off parts which I have a feeling may grow into a closed cab Bantam. Please keep us updated with your project!

    What are you planning for brakes? Are you a member of either Austin / Bantam club?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  30. rg171352
    Joined: Oct 24, 2007
    Posts: 505

    rg171352
    Member
    from New York

    Paint stripping action shots!

    While it may be hard to tell from these low quality photos, I am about as done with paint stripping as possible, both figuratively and literally. There is still a little bit of residue, but at this point, the stripper just isn't really as effect is it was initially. The remainder of this old primer will likely be stripped by hand, carefully. I have cleaned enough that I can see most of the spot welds holding the cowl stampings, pillarl covers, and quarters onto the "sub-frame".

    The next step will be to get this body bolted onto the frame with proper mounts in the correct locations and then removing the body side hinges to prepare the body for alignment. I am going to go about aligning the body in two ways. First, I have a very nice passenger door which I am going to use to get an idea of gaps and such. Secondly, I am going to take measurements of an original Hollywood to get an idea of the dimensional relationships I should be striving for.

    Once I am sure the cowl is spaced properly at the bottom, I am going to brace the sheet metal stampings there and begin removing the spot welds holding it to the body. With the cowl panel safely removed, I will begin stretching and pulling the body into place. I am considering using bracing with turnbuckles and heim joints. It really just depends how badly this body has twisted on what method I will have to use. Now I just need to find some 1/4" thick neoprene discs to fit the cup washers I have for body mounts and some tar paper to lay along the length of the frame so I can move along a bit more.

    While the body is slowly shaping up, I am going to begin rebuilding the front axle. At GreginJax's advice, I'm going to go for the .025" oversize king pins and have them installed at a local machine shop.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017

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