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1930s Era Champ Car - new project

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER, Nov 20, 2007.

?

Another question: Posi or non-posi?

Poll closed Aug 18, 2021.
  1. Posi for two-wheel traction

    100.0%
  2. No Posi for better handling in the corners.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Further fit-up of the hood meant enlarging the exhaust cutouts to get the hood to come down. Next I had to trim the front and rear edges. I made a clearance tool to register on the edge of the hood recess and marked a line to give me 3/16 body clearance. One suggestion: If you want 3/16 clearance cut it for 3/32, as things will likely shift as the hood settles into place. More clearance can then be added as necessary.

    Clearance tool -
    Hood 24.JPG Hood 25.JPG Hood 26.JPG Hood 27.JPG Hood 28.JPG
     
  2. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Further impetus to finish up the hood:
    My hood strap kit arrived from Lime Works.

    I did have to chuckle a bit as I read through their instructions. It said to "wear cotton cloves when handling the leather straps so as to keep oily fingerprints from staining the leather."
    It's going on the hood of a racing car for goodness sakes - not in a museum. It will likely be surrounded by oil.
    Hood 29.JPG
    I think I'll buff out the latch handles further.
     
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  3. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I am seeking advice from experienced E-wheel users. Before tackling putting a dome in my hood I tried a piece of scrap material of the same thickness to see how much pressure was needed and in which direction I should be rolling it - longitudinally or laterally. It was then that I came to realize that I am better at making E-wheels than using one. I discovered I was only going to need to preload the die by about half a number. (Tech tip: Have some way to repeat the pressure setting on your E-wheel. Mine has numbered toe-kick legs - DRO would probably be even spiffier.) I first made a series of passes in the lateral direction - back and forth. The metal arched up but did not put a lot of crown along the spine of the hood. Bear in mind the sides of the hood panel still need to be straight to align with the bottom panels. I don't want this thing to come out looking like The-Python-That-Swallowed-The-Pig, just a gentle arch along the middle of the hood.
    All suggestions from those who have solved similar forming projects are welcomed. Hood 30.JPG
    Hood 31.JPG Hood 32.JPG Hood 33.JPG
     
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  4. Jay A Driggars
    Joined: Feb 18, 2018
    Posts: 41

    Jay A Driggars
    Member

    Last edited: Jun 17, 2022
    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER likes this.
  5. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks Jay. One thing that impressed me about your similar build is how quickly you got it done. Mine - no so much. But as it gets closer to a running car my enthusiasm is actually ramping up. I wish I had longer blocks of time to work it.
     
  6. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Well I tackled the domed hood.
    Results: not so good.
    I did not get a consistent dome. I am hoping to do more work on it. After watching several youtube videos I decided to see if I could get the proper shape by just E-wheeling it. I haven't given up - just stopped after about an hour of wheeling. The only part I was satisfied with was the part circled in red. I hope I do not end up having to pie-cut and weld. I may have to start over if that is the case.

    Hood 34.JPG Hood 35.jpg
     
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  7. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    In an effort to get the hood to be a little more compliant I built a glowing fire in our fire pit and set the hood on it to anneal it a bunch. All the E-wheeling I put in it work hardened it and made further shaping difficult for a man of my bore and stroke. I'll roll it some more before giving up and making two pie-cuts in the front to bring it down.

    Hood 36.JPG
     
  8. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I had decided to go ahead and pie-cut the hood to get it down in place. So I made a small test coupon to see how much wedge to cut out of it. I used a #11 sweep of 327.8 " radius and cut it out. It looked like it was going to need a little bit wider wedge cut. But before I cut and welded I decided to see if annealing the hood made it any easier to work so it went back under the E-wheel to raise a few low spots before cutting it. Then an amazing thing happened! It started to take shape nicely. I do not think I will need pie-cuts after all. I will do a little further shape refinement on the E-wheel, then planish it to get out the ripples before setting the final gaps and clearances.

    Hood 37.5.JPG
    Hood 37.JPG Hood 38.JPG Hood 39.JPG Hood 40.JPG
     
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  9. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Well, after working it under the E-wheel some more I am starting to like the results.
    This was an interesting aspect of this car project. From doing this hood I would like to share some Lessons Learned from making a part this big.

    Lesson 1. It would have been easier to make the hood top in three sections, then weld them together. A piece this big barely fit into my E-wheel and it did not fit into my planishing hammer, meaning lots of hand hammering was needed. Three pieces welded together would have been easier.

    Lesson 2. Get a friend to help hold the panel under the wheel. It was unwieldly at first, but as more shape was formed into it the stiffness increased and made it easier to roll through.

    Lesson 3. Anneal it as it work hardens. The sooty acetylene method works, but so does slow roasting it on a fire. I will probably anneal it one more time before final planishing and paint.

    Lesson 4. It looks HAWRABLE!, HORRIBLE!, Horrible!, horrible!...and then it doesn't. Progress on an E-wheel happens exponentially. Don't quit.

    Hood 41.JPG Hood 42.JPG
     
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  10. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Now that the hood is nearing its near net shape I turned my attention to the hold down straps and buckles. Remembering the warning in the instructions about not getting fingerprints on the leather straps I decided to make temporary straps to fit everything up. I had some waist band reinforcing material in my sewing things that was the same width as the leather straps so I sewed that up for mock up.
    I had a problem.
    The three leather straps included in the kit were each 48 inches long and were meant for an application where short straps are fastened to the edges of the hood.
    The look I am looking for was to have the straps wrap over the hood in two places. But the distance over the hood was about 60 inches. The longest the straps can be is 48" minus the wrap-around needed for the buckle attachment. Additionally, if I used two 48" straps in their entirety that only leaves me one 48" piece of leather that must be cut up into four equal pieces for the springs and hold downs, or about 12" per corner. I used a 4" piece and an 8" piece to do that. Better to have gone with 5"/7".
    I will make a jig bushing to locate the hold down holes and align the tap.

    In the mean time I polished up a latch handle to a higher luster. It went well, must do the other three.

    Hood 44.JPG Hood 45.JPG Hood 46.JPG Hood 47.JPG Hood 43.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  11. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Today I made a fixturing and drill jig and mounted the hood strap anchors to the frame.

    Hood 48.JPG
     
  12. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    If the devil is in the details this project is full of the devil.
    I made a bracket to hold the rear brake cables. These will be used to drift the car on the track. It gets welded on under / inside the frame.
    Then I triangulated the rear radius rods and roughed out the spacer gussets for the front wishbones. Sometimes when I need an extra hand to hold stuff I rely on masking tape.

    brake 29.JPG sr_wishbones02.JPG sr_wishbones03.JPG sr_wishbones04.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
  13. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,384

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    The smell of burning tape In the morning! It smells like victory!
     
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  14. ssffnomad
    Joined: Jul 23, 2008
    Posts: 880

    ssffnomad
    Member

    Better than my usual Burning Flesh.
    Seriously, awesome workmanship. Thanks for posting.
    Stretch
     
  15. You do excellent work sir!
     
  16. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    Thank you ssffnomad and FinnishFireball.
     
  17. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY

    I took the weekend off of working on the champ car to do some straight-line drag racing.
    Sometimes when it's your day it's your day.
    Yesterday wasn't one of them.
    In spite of the fact that the altered ran five straight 5.72s in a row and my average lights in competition were .006 seconds I could not make it past the third round, and lost by .003 seconds.
    I'll just have to wait my turn to "be lucky".

    I want to do a fun little project next - make a grille. I'll need to buy some grille bar stock to complete. In the meantime I'm mulling over design options and fab techniques.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2022
  18. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I made a paper pattern. I want to put some crown in it. I think I will try to make a press die set from hardwood, since it only has to shape 1/8" soft aluminum, one-time use grille 01.JPG grille 02.JPG grille 03.JPG .
     
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  19. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    I made the die set to put a crown in the grille surround. It doesn't show up real well in these photos but it should enhance the appearance of the grille if it works. My biggest concern will be getting it to work going around the corners; further mods to the die may be necessary. I also plan to put a small scallop at the top of the surround to possibly carry a monogram or name or number.

    grille 04.JPG grille 05.JPG grille 06.JPG grille 07.JPG grille 08.JPG
     
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  20. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    More work on the grille shell. I laid out the flat pattern on metal shown by the dotted lines. Then since the part was going to be somewhat conical I eyeballed a straighter pattern to allow for me to roll some conical shape in it without shrinking or stretching too much - shown in solid black lines. Cut matching sides; put some crown in the pieces with my new dies and welded the two together. I had to weld a bit of metal between the two to get the right shape. Done for today. Stay tuned...

    grille 09.JPG grille 10.JPG grille 11.JPG grille 12.JPG grille 13.1.JPG grille 13.JPG grille 14.JPG grille 15.JPG grille 16.JPG
     
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  21. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    I've decided to wait to do the final fit-up of the grille until I get a skim coat of filler on the body, so the grille closely matches the final body contours. But the surround is close enough to visualize the final product. The surround overlaps the opening by about 3/8" to give me room to weld in grille bars, which I hope to make from 1/8 x 1/2 or 3/16 x 1/2 aluminum bar stock with a gentle curve added to them.

    Many of those old cars had cast aluminum or cast stainless grilles. I wish I had that capability (or budget).

    grille 17 (2).JPG grille 18.JPG
     
  22. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Since the steering nacelle needs to be removed every time the body will be removed I installed threaded inserts to keep the threads fresh.
    Steering 17.JPG

    In order to get the rear parking brakes to function as a braking system I cut and shortened the driver's side cable and housing and made a new cable end that I think is more reliable than the original barbed end.
    brake 31.JPG brake 33.JPG brake 32.JPG
     
  23. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I am seeking a source for new rear brakes. I want to replace the backing plates and all the hardware and shoes with new. Can anyone recommend a source for complete brake assemblies? Here are the specifics:

    NINE INCH FORD TRUCK - 1981 BRONCO, SPECIFICALLY
    5 X 5.5 STANDARD FORD TRUCK BOLT PATTERN
    11" X 1.75" BRAKE SHOES

    Many thanks.
    6re6

    [EDIT: I haven't been able to find '81 Bronc brakes with 1.75 shoes - all show 2.25". But early '70s Broncs had 1.75 brakes so the axle may be earlier Bronco. The backing plate mounting holes are 1/2", 2.375" x 3.5" pattern. It also has a round-back center section.]


    brake 30.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
  24. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

  25. You can check these guys out too. In Valleyview on Canal rd. Been there since I could remember. Might be a good excuse to make a trip back home.

    Valley Ford Truck | Cleveland Ford Car Parts (valleyfordtruckinc.com)

    Parts Dept. Hours
    • Monday7:00am-9:00pm
    • Tuesday7:00am-9:00pm
    • Wednesday7:00am-9:00pm
    • Thursday7:00am-9:00pm
    • Friday7:00am-6:00pm
    • Saturday7:00am-2:00pm
    [​IMG]
     
  26. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

  27. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I had a bit of a setback today. As I was working on the rear brakes I noticed the left axle had about 2 mm of play in it. Well I thought all I was going to have to do was pull the axle and replace the bearing and seal. Nay Nay, The bearing seized on the axle and "ate" the axle shaft where the bearing is pressed on. Perhaps the retainer ring was never seated against the bearing. At any rate now I need to find an axle and a bearing. I wish I knew which year Bronco axle to hunt for. Broncos are hot right now so parts will probably be pricey and scarce.

    axle rr 01.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2022
  28. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,333

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I have a 9" rear axle that purportedly came from a Bronco. The trouble is the LEFT axle dimensions do not exactly match anything I see listed.


    Here are the specifications:|

    9" rear - round back housing

    5 x 5.5 bolt circle - Ford truck

    11" x 1.75" brake shoes

    2.375" x 3.5" x 1/2" bolt circle

    big bearing ends 3.150" diameter

    28 splines

    30" length to wheel mounting flange
    EDIT:
    The housing width is approximately 56" (not flange-to-flange width)

    The housing axle tubes are 3.0" in diameter, not tapered.



    Does anybody know of a Bronco axle that matches this?


    I'm beginning to think it may be a F-100 or F-150.

    I also need the drum brake assemblies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022

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