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1930s Era Champ Car - new project

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER, Nov 20, 2007.

?

Another question: Posi or non-posi?

Poll closed Aug 18, 2021.
  1. Posi for two-wheel traction

    100.0%
  2. No Posi for better handling in the corners.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    I love your "spoon" pedal! That's getting plagiarized for the Whatever project, for sure.
     
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  2. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks Dave G. I have enjoyed reading about your Whatever and will borrow some tips from you too, like the inset flanged washers welded into thin gauge plate.

    Re your TIG foot pedal wiring issues, I never realized how cumbersome a conventional hard-wired pedal was until I got my Miller Dynasty 210 with a wireless pedal. I find that it makes shifting positions easier.

    I hope to see your cageless sprint project on the HAMB in the future.
    Thanks again.
     
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  3. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    My Lincoln is old. I doubt if one of those wireless pedals is available for it.

    That project is a year or so away, other than collecting bits and bobs. The hardest parts to find I think will be a set of 35-36 Ford ton and a half front spindles. I have no leads yet. They look like 37 round back spindles but beefier with 6 backing plate holes and a forged on drag link arm like 32-34 spindles.
     
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  4. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    So I have to ask, why those specific spindles?
     
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  5. Maybe try contacting member Jack_Pine. He has an upgrade project for 1936 Ford 1.5 ton.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  6. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    They were used on champ cars in the 40s and 50s, and are much beefier than passenger car spindles. And I just like the look of them. I could use IH truck spindles also. They look like beefier versions of the Chevy spindles that some street rods use. Downside to the IH spindles is bolt on arms.

    There's an old post showing these spindles on a 50s era car, Technical-Spindle identification. I would use the actual link, but I'm really an idiot with computers...
     
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  7. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    Is he on the hamb? Read last post from me and you'll understand why I have to ask...
     
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  8. loudbang likes this.
  9. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

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  10. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    The gas pedal in metal. It needs a return strap which I will form fit sitting in the car with someone measuring a pattern.
    gas pedl 13.JPG


    Next comes hand and foot brake placement.
     
  11. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    The more I look at that pedal the more I like it. I'm thinking that it could be mirror imaged sort of, by putting the pedal on the other side. That way I can get my right foot on the brake pedal that will be right beside it. Your car being like our old (or for that matter new) dirt modifieds, where the brake was on the left side of the transmission and the throttle pedal on the right. I'll be sitting on the side of the car and the pedals will all be next to each other. So more plaigerizing...
     
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  12. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks Dave. I am going to find a torsion spring to mount on the backside over the pivot boss to act as a self-return spring. That and the return strap should wrap it up.

    The brake pedal is going to be a bit more complex. That is because of space limitations I will have to make it pivot off the L.H. frame rail. Pushing the pedal will draw the brake plunger rod forward. The master cylinder will be mounted under my left butt cheek so I will need a bell crank device to turn pull into push. In addition a hand brake outside the body on the frame will also be functional. What gets complicated is making the hand lever and foot pedal work independently. Pushing on the foot pedal should not draw back the hand lever. Pulling back the hand lever should not depress the foot pedal. I have an idea of a shaft connected to the hand lever, with a pin through it driving a sleeve by a pin in a slotted collar which also may act as a bell crank. Here's where I need a CAD drawing.
     
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  13. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    This sounds like some sort of dual push rod. Say like a rod inside of a tube. Both can independently push the master. I can see it in my mind's eye but I can't describe it. If you like I'll try to sketch out the idea festering in my mind.

    One more thing I may use on the Whatever project...it would be neat to have something like that on a track-ish roadster.
     
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  14. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    So here's a poor attempt to draw a dual pushrod thing/bell crank for dual independent m/c operation DSCN1198.JPG 20210810_111031.jpg I took pictures 2 ways, because I can't scan stuff. Hopefully it will be good enough for you to get the idea.
     
  15. Why not just a simple cable actuated hand brake like it was back in the day?
     
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  16. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks for the ideas. I will mull them over in my solution soup.

    I did acquire a new master cylinder that a friend donated to the cause. It has a 1" bore. I was thinking a 7/8" bore would be best but maybe I can juggle the linkage ratios to make it useful.

    brake 04.JPG
     
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  17. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I plan to use four-wheel brakes to make the car street legal. But your cable idea raises a possibility - hook the hand lever to the emergency brake levers in the drum brakes on the rear wheels only. That way I could use the hand brake to throw the car sideways into a turn by using the rear brakes only.

    This of course, raises the question of the use of a (adjustable?) proportioning valve and how to tie it in to this mish-mash.
     
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  18. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I added a poll

    Posi or non-Posi?

    because I do not know which would be best on a circle track. Is the answer the same for dirt or asphalt? I have two 9" pigs set up - a 3.25 with posi and a 3.25 open.
    [I like a posi on the street, even though the rear end chatters on a light car around corners.]

    More random thoughts -
    On a quarter mile short track I'll probably want the 2nd gear of the C4 trans which is a 1.46:1 ratio which would give me an overall drive ratio of 3.25 x 1.46 = 4.74:1. At 80 mph down the straight that puts me at 4555 RPM with a 28" tall tire (assuming no converter slip) . That is pretty good for my mule motor with a stock cam. Or with a bigger cam in first gear (2.46:1) I'll be turning 7700. That is out of my comfort zone with this engine so a rear gear change would be needed.

    On a mile-long track at 140 mph (do they let vintage racers travel that fast?) in high gear with no converter slip I'm at around 5400 RPM, probably the limit of the existing valve train, not to mention the undersized Hitachi carbs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
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  19. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,345

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Standard sprint car practice is a solid axle, no differential, so a posi or locker would be what you want.
     
  20. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks 64 DODGE 440, Maybe I'll need to find a pair of trad tires with a lot of stagger.

    I made the gas pedal return clip. Mandatory in NHRA drag racing - dunno about circle sanctioning bodies. Useful for all applications.
    gas pedl 14.JPG
     
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  21. Am I missing something? I thought you use the right foot on the throttle to steer the car sideways into the corner on dirt or are you talking that new fangled "Drifting" on asphalt. School me please.
     
  22. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 1,180

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    I like it! Mirror image it and I have a gas pedal too... thanks!
     
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  23. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Its all new to me HJ. I think its a combination of throttle, brakes, and steering in the perfect amounts. Its what separates the good from the greats. The only track experience I have is in go karts at a young age and I didn't throw them around much We'll see.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
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  24. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I made the preliminary set of patterns for the foot brake portion of the stopping system. The master cylinder is actuated by the rod with the Heim end shown. It will need shortening depending on where the bell crank ends up. The trans shift linkage has got to go. I may cut it off and just attach the shifter handle to the shaft and make the handle hug the trans case. Still have to think thru the hand brake placement. The two quarter-inch bolts in the side of the trans case are for mounting the neutral safety / back up lights switch. I would like to keep those features, but if space is a priority they may have to go.

    edit: The master cylinder has a total travel of just over an inch, so ideally I would like the foot pedal to stroke at least 6".

    brake 05.JPG
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  25. You might find this interesting and informative.

    How to drive a dirt pure stock - YouTube
     
  26. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I have decided to sell all of the wooden body bucks I built and used to build this race car body. This will be the only car I build off these bucks. Somebody else may need them. I will post a "for sale" ad in the HAMB classifieds.
     

    Attached Files:

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  27. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I think I've nailed down my "final, final" "preliminary" brake patterns (I know - oxymoron).
    Now I will machine them out of metal.
    brake 06.JPG


    I may move the MC a little closer to the center of the car to allow room for the hand brake linkage to the rear drums room to pass by near the frame.
    brake 07.JPG
     
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  28. What grill are you using on this nose buck ?
     
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  29. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 1,470

    jaracer
    Member

    The nose piece on my first sprint car was flanged so that the hood rested on the flange making the leading edge of the hood flush with the nose. There were 4 dzus fasteners in the flange which attached the nose to the radiator hoop nose.jpg . You can see that the nose extended behind the axle with a cut out for the front spring. There was also a piece that went below the nose and under the axle. It attached to the pan under the engine.
     
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  30. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 4,166

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks jaracer, I will do something similar except I don't want any Dzus buttons to show so I'll fasten the rear offset flange to the rad hoop with countersunk fasteners, covered up by the front edge of the hood.
     
    HJmaniac likes this.

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