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1930s Era Champ Car - new project

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER, Nov 20, 2007.

  1. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    EDIT 7/8/17: I loaded new pics (not off photobucket - I'll try to edit previous posts soon)
    Buck headrest 24.jpg The headrest is "nailed down".



    I made a little 2-wheel dolly to move big body sections around.
    Buck headrest 25.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  2. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Buck headrest 26.jpg Buck headrest 27.jpg Before welding, I used a Dremel grinder with a cutoff wheel to cut a .035" root opening between the pieces of metal. I joined them together in a similar fashion to the two headrest halves, previously discussed.


    Buck headrest 27.jpg Buck headrest 24.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  3. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,362

    gnichols
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    from Tampa, FL

    That body looks fantastic. Gary
     
  4. Third DodgeBrother
    Joined: Apr 18, 2009
    Posts: 176

    Third DodgeBrother
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    Can't believe I lost track of this thread! This is what I meant by steering angle. IRA-Sprint-Car-Racing-Action.jpg
     
  5. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,362

    gnichols
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    from Tampa, FL

    Amazing... only an oval racer can figure out how to get the entire car to lean into a turn at opposite lock! Gary
     
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  6. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,910

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Aerodynamics my friend. Yours would lean that hard too, if you had sideboards that big on top of it. ;-)

    Sent from my BLU DASH MUSIC 4.0 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  7. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    OK, forgive my ignorance, I'm still trying to put my finger on what you mean by steering angle because the photo you posted shows examples of many angles involved in getting that car around a curve:

    The body/chassis is rolled axially to the inside of the turn. I guess that is what CoolHand is referring to when he speaks of the effect the big wing has.

    The side slip angle of the tires vis-a-vis the track surface (what kids today might call "drift" angle) is also quite apparent.

    The angle that the front wheels are clocked.

    or

    The caster angle on the front kingpins. What I originally thought you are referring to.

    I'm not trying to be contrarian here. I just want to know more about these machines so I don't make some kind of avoidable mistake. Which angle did you originally ask about?
    Thanks for posting that picture ThirdDodgeBrother. I studied it and am learning from it.
     
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  8. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    P.S., I know I am usually a "form follows function" guy and I see better because of that pic how the wing is shaped to help the car both corner better AND stay glued down on the straights - but to me those wings are just plain ugly.

    Likewise with modern day Funny Car spoilers.
     
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  9. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 644

    Fabber McGee
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    Those wings not only take a couple seconds off a 1/2 mile lap time as opposed to a non winged car, they are a huge billboard for the sponsors (many are spending more than a million bucks a year to fund a competitive team)and they are a major piece of safety equipment. They not only add speed, they stabilize the cars on rough, lumpy, sticky, rutted up dirt tracks and provide an aero cushion during the times when these cars are doing multiple end over end flips and when the car gets back in contact with the ground they provide a mechanical cushion to crush and soften the impacts. Flips in winged sprints are much less violent than non winged cars. There are a few non winged shows around the country, but a large number of drivers refuse to run a non winged sprint car because with modern power to weight ratios and modern tires and suspension hooking up the car the increased speeds make for very violent flips without the wings.

    My dad and I were at the Knoxville Nationals in Knoxville Iowa this past August. It's the most prestigious sprint car race in the country and all the big teams were there to compete for nearly a million dollar purse on the 4 day show. 4 days of qualifying and 150,000 to win the Saturday night A Feature race, and everyone that finished a race (no matter how far back) got some of the purse. For the guys that aren't familiar with winged sprints, here's the Saturday night A Feature race. Watch closely, these guys run on the ragged edge of control.

    Are they ugly? Anything that is not the way things looked in the old days is ugly in the eyes of many people, especially on this site, ha,ha. To me they are not ugly, just different.
     
  10. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,910

    CoolHand
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    From a technical standpoint, "steering angle" is the measure of how far the face of the front hubs deviate from the long axis of the chassis, usually measured in degrees.

    In that pic above, that sprinter has got 50°+ of steering angle to the right, which is very likely full right lock on the box.

    I don't know if that's what the guy who originally posted the words meant, but that's the technical definition (more or less).

    Modern dirt racing cars (modifieds, late models, sprints, midgets, etc) are all so ugly that they're beautiful, at least to anyone who's driven one. Kind of like a face only a mother could love, they're beasts only a driver could love. ;)
     
  11. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 976

    Speedwrench
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    Fibber, The Knoxville A Main on Saturday night pays $10,000 to just start.
     
  12. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 644

    Fabber McGee
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    Yeah, I saw the breakdown in the program or one of the little give away papers around town. Pretty amazing. Second place was 75,000, pretty good incentive to win. Ha,ha.
     
  13. Third DodgeBrother
    Joined: Apr 18, 2009
    Posts: 176

    Third DodgeBrother
    Member

    Sorry for the confusion. I meant to include this image to make my point. sr_040.jpg sr_040.jpg
    I don't know if you've had a chance to drive on a snow-packed country road, or slide a motorcycle around a flat track, or do long donuts in an icy high school parking lot, but that's some of the most fun you can have with a car. What the sprint is doing is called "backing it in." Steering is reversed, the whole car is hanging on the throttle and that big right rear. One of the best feelings you can have. The worst is to run out of throttle or steering lock and back your puppy's hand formed tail into the wall!
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
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  14. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 644

    Fabber McGee
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    Dodge, great description. While it's disappointing to bend up the tail, there is no reason to be embarrassed when you back it in. Everyone watching knows you're using everything the car can give and you've got brass enough to hold the throttle to the floor. What a lot of spectators don't realize is if you're up by the wall when you put yourself in that situation, getting off the throttle usually won't save it, but will probably put you on your head instead. Depends on how sticky the track is and how deep the cushion. Cushion being a term for the loose dirt up near the wall, thrown up there by the cars during the races.

    Great fun for a young, wild eyed adrenaline junky. Ha,ha, you have to believe what the older more experienced drivers tell you. It took me a few times to learn that when all hope is lost, you don't back out, you gotta keep it mashed flat to the floor. If I could make myself hold it down, I'd usually be alright. Probably the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  15. 1-SHOT
    Joined: Sep 23, 2014
    Posts: 1,350

    1-SHOT
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    Watch some videos of Steve Kinser jump the cushion and hit the wall at Knoxville, he has it on the floor and usually just shoots him off, if he ever lifted it would have turned him into the wall and he would have gone for a ride.
     
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  16. woodbutcher
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 3,000

    woodbutcher
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    :D Hi FTF.Great thread.Sorta lost track of this one on Fordsix.Looking real good.Please keep the updates coming as you can.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
     
  17. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks Fabber, Speedwrench, ThirdDodgeBrother, IShot.
    I learned a lot from your latest posts. I can't wait to turn laps in this beast. Since I am using a Ford 300 truck six and have built several of them, ranging from 200 to 550 HP I think I'll be able to screw in enough grunt to get me to the ragged edge of being in trouble. I look forward to it.

    Speedwrench, I see you are in Dearborn. I spent 31 years as an engineer at FoMoCo's Dearborn R&D Center mostly in the Engine Performance Development Group. Maybe our paths have crossed at some point??

    Progress this fall has been slowed by some unexpected RV maintenance and an extended drag racing season. My Super Pro drag car engine needs to be pulled for a rebuild (after SIX years of racing!) and a little home maintenance so hours to devote are tight at the moment. This week I'm going to hook up the '46 push truck to the purpose-built trailer and tow it home to get krackin' on it again.
     
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  18. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
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    from No. Cal

    What a fantastic thread.
    Thanks so much
     
  19. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Thanks Jimmy2car, Welcome aboard.
     
  20. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    sr_071.jpg sr_072.jpg The champ car came back to my home shop today, reunited with the '46 Ford push / tow truck and its own trailer. This build has been going on a long time, but the truck and trailer got finished in the mean time so I suppose that signifies some progress of sorts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
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  21. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 644

    Fabber McGee
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    Lookin' good with the tail on. Look forward to the video of you hangin' it out on some dirt.
     
  22. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 17,428

    loudbang
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    Not sure how I missed this one but have read through it all and "watching" it now. Great job.
     
  23. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Welcome loudbang. I've been following all of your postings on the drag roadster, altereds and vintage racing threads. Glad you're aboard.
     
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  24. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 976

    Speedwrench
    Member

    .

    Speedwrench, I see you are in Dearborn. I spent 31 years as an engineer at FoMoCo's Dearborn R&D Center mostly in the Engine Performance Development Group. Maybe our paths have crossed at some point??

    I was an on-site supplier liaison engineer attached to an advanced engineering group doing fuel system research from 1996 to early 2002. We were in building 5 and AEC over the years.

    I know terms used on this board and the way their used in the industry can have different meanings so I have to ask how you are using " performance". For what it's worth we were kitty corner form John Valentine's " racing group " in AEC when Ford was involved in F1. So it's possible our paths crossed.
     
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  25. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Our "performance" group had domain over all of the engine families used in current and near term upcoming model years. To that end we were responsible for achieving emissions, durability, and power objectives. I worked on the V8s, mostly the 5.0 GT Mustang from its rebirth through 1987, when I transferred to the Modular V8 engine family of engines. I spent most of my time conducting dynamometer tests to meet those objectives. Boy it was a fun job, but there were other things I wanted to do with my life so after 31 years I bid adieu to my blue-blood buddies and set out to discover my world. Like building hot rods and racin'.
     
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  26. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,910

    CoolHand
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  27. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,588

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    sr_073.jpg sr_074.jpg sr_075.jpg In these old replicas there are a lot of little "visual delights" that can make a car interesting to see. I thought I would make one of those little visually appealing details today. A heat shield for the exhaust pipe. First I cut a blank of sheet stainless, laid out some cooling holes and rolled a curve in it. Then I made a small belling tool for my DiAcro press so I could put a bell mouth on the holes. This is needed to prevent the shield from becoming a cheese grater on my body parts should I come into contact with it during an upset. I just need to make some stand-off nuts to weld it in place when the time comes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  28. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 644

    Fabber McGee
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  29. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,362

    gnichols
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    from Tampa, FL

    Hole-ie mackerel, that's nice. Gary
     
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  30. woodbutcher
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 3,000

    woodbutcher
    Member

    :D Hi FTF.That`s sweet.Neat but not gaudy.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
     

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