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1928 chevy 4cyl motor

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RedRodder, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Or, You could save on shipping and just give it to me for Christmas. I'd pick it up and you wouldn't have to mess with it. :)
     
  2. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    What a find. Was it cheap? Or affordable..?
     
  3. Herb Kephart
    Joined: Jan 9, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Herb Kephart
    Member

    Most of those parts are 224 (the large engine) I could use the timing gears, if they turn out to be no use to you. They won't fit the 171 (much more common)

    Herb
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  4. Stueeee
    Joined: Oct 21, 2015
    Posts: 254

    Stueeee
    Member
    from Kent, UK

    Finally had some time to do some work on one of my four banger motors. Have come across a few "interesting" things during the strip down.

    First up up is the Ford Model "A" rod on the Chevy crank.
    Here are the two big ends side by side:
    [​IMG]
    Here's the Ford rod on a four banger crankpin.
    [​IMG]
    The Ford rod has the same nominal bearing diameter at 1.5" but is around 1/4" narrower than the Chevy rod at the big end. Has anyone run an engine like this? did you leave the huge endfloat or did you metal out the cheeks of the big end in some way -an extra 1/8" of white metal each side seems a lot.

    I am considering converting the whole bottom end to full pressure lube. The stock "oil seal" arrangement for the rear main in the next picture looks like it would be fairly ineffective when the bearing is getting oil under pressure. It doesn't look to be easy to fit any kind of modern seal here -the bearing cap and crankcase half at the rear don't really have much metal there for putting in a lip seal or rope seal. I am considering machining out the third groove and fitting an "O" ring in there. this "O" ring should stay static in the groove and would ride on the polished crank tail. Does this sound feasible, or has anyone fitted a positive seal of some other sort to one of these motors?

    [​IMG]

    Something that might be of interest to people on here is some alternative cam followers/tappets for the four banger motor...
    [​IMG]

    The tappet at the top is the four banger item. The one underneath is a well used BMC/British Leyland "A" series tappet that I had kicking around. As you can see from the photo there is only .02" difference in diameter, so putting a 13/16" reamer down the tappet hole in the crankcase would allow you to use the "A" series tappets. They're much lighter than the 4 banger items and cost about 20 USD for a set of 8 from UK suppliers like Minisport (minisport.com -usual disclaimer re. only a customer etc.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
    282doorUK likes this.
  5. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,771

    noboD
    Member

    13/16 is way too big, .8125. You better measure a lot closer before you do that.
     
  6. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    So at this point how difficult is it to use the Model A, or counterweighted B, crank as mentioned earlier in this thread? Would that conversion lead to different seals?
     
  7. Stueeee
    Joined: Oct 21, 2015
    Posts: 254

    Stueeee
    Member
    from Kent, UK

    13/16" = .8125" used tappet measures .81" you are saying that .0025" -i.e. 2 and half thou'- clearance is too great; whether that's true or not, having built dozens of "A" series motor over the years, I can assure you that the tappet bore in these crankcases is 13/16" diameter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  8. GraeffSS
    Joined: May 9, 2016
    Posts: 82

    GraeffSS
    Member

    I've been reading this thread for a while, i have a few Chevy 4 engines laying around, so i decided do look into them, 3 are 28 engines and i actually have no idea of their state (they are covered so i suppose they are not stuck, but other than that no idea). One if i read the casting number correctly is a December 1926 engine, Ferro casting, and as far as i know works
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The last one is i believe a 1924 engine, it is in a Utility Express Truck that my grandpa bought some 20 years ago and never got to restore, before this it was in a junkyard so i suppose this engine hasn't run in about 50 years, it has an external distributor and oil pump
    [​IMG]
    The casting number on this one is in the exhaust side, and i have no idea how to read it (Edit: I checked it again and the date is above the casting number, it's a june 1925 engine, so not the truck's original engine)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Someday i want to restore the truck, early Chevy trucks are not common here in Brazil, most if not all of them are 26 or later and i never saw one that was properly restored
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
    tractorguy likes this.
  9. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,406

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, Stueee;
    To run the narrower rods, you could convert to 'piston-guided' rods. You'll need to use/create spacers to tighten up wrist-pin end clearances. The clearance(s) are very tight, although I can't remember what they would be. As long as you have proper crank end bearing clearances for the rod, the extra clearance(s) won't matter. There is a engineer who writes on oil tests that has been able to validate this through testing. Changed my thinking on more than 1 thing.
    Long read, but worth the time & thought. Think I found it posted here on HAMB previously:
    https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
    I noticed that the rods were shorter in c-c length than the chev rods. Why run shorter rods, needing a longer piston? Cost vs availability?
    Marcus...
     
  10. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Stueeee, I'm confused. Are the two rods above a Chevy on the left and a Ford on the right? According to information earlier the Chevy should be shorter than the Flathead. Could the on on the left be a Durant? Or are you building something bigger than the 171?

    100_1979.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  11. Stueeee
    Joined: Oct 21, 2015
    Posts: 254

    Stueeee
    Member
    from Kent, UK

    Not sure about the exact details re fitting the model A or B crank in a four banger, But the "A" crank left the factory with a slinger on the rear main. Snyders do a lip seal conversion which I'm looking at using on the 4 banger -it's a flexible seal, so it should be possible to stretch it over the 4 banger rear flange in the same way as for the model "A" Obviously to use it on the four banger it will be necessary to machine up a housing from a chunk of Ali billet.

    When I took the photo to emphasize the different big end widths, I hadn't noticed that I'd also managed to create an optical illusion making the Chevy rod look longer than the Ford item. The big end split lines are both aligned on the edge of this machine table.
    [​IMG]

    @ NRGwizard thanks for that information. I did wonder about leaving minimal endfloat at the small end. Quite easy to do with the massive width of the Ford "A" rod at that point. I'll be using Chevy 261 truck pistons which have a fairly narrow gap between the piston bosses.

    But with the other issues -Puny centre crank webs, as well as the rear main oil seal issue, I am considering getting a billet crank made for the four banger. I am due to pick up a fully counterweighted bespoke billet crank for my '32 Austin next week. So will take in the Chevy crank and ask how much they'll want to produce a nitrided billet crank for the '28 motor. I would have this made to use the narrower Ford big end width which would allow a lot more metal in the webs. Very tempting to go up to 4.1" stroke at the same time -need to do some work here to make sure the rods would still clear the cam. I'll just make sure I'm sitting down when Marc tells me how much all this will cost me!
     
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  12. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    I can see the pinch bolt on the Chevy rod now too.
    Also think of getting the new A rods milled for inserts.
    Earlier in this thread Herb talked about using the A crank but if you can afford having a modern custom one made that sounds great.
     
  13. Herb Kephart
    Joined: Jan 9, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Herb Kephart
    Member

    First--the Ford A and B rods are 1/8" longer, and a LOT better metal that the Chev.
    Second--I have read that Ford A (and even B with counterweights[the fabled "C"]) have been put into the Chev block. Points of interference are the interior radii at the front and rear of the block/pan surface- evident quickly by laying the crank on the block.--probably others.

    Now, I'm going to say something that should stir up the troops. Rods fail in compression (assuming the rod bolts hold) This means that the rods will bend, and eventually buckle from the force of the combustion, plus the whipping action of the crank. then, as the piston goes back up to top dead center, there is a slight effort to straighten the rod out again. What do you do when you want to break off a piece of metal? You bend it back and forth--right? so this, in a very simplified explanation, is what makes rods fail. The Ford rods are made of alloy steel, and better resist all this.
    I will continue this after I do some chores.

    Herb
     
    Six Ball likes this.
  14. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Thanks Herb. I have what is probably a junk Chevy block and a Model A crank. Someday I'll get them together for a photo session. I read somewhere that racers used to mix nitro and adjust timing on Ford flatheads until they started bending rods. Then they would back off the mixture or timing, straighten the rods and race. It was attributed to the good metal used in the spindly flathead rods.
     
  15. Herb Kephart
    Joined: Jan 9, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Herb Kephart
    Member

    170crankshaft 002.jpg Interesting story about the Nitro and the V8 racers. I would have thought that they would have burned a hole in the head of a piston--but if they just kept pouring nitro in I guess that that they could hydro-lock a cylinder--THAT would make a rod bend! The only nitro that I ever used was in model airplane fuel, so I know next to nothing about its use in cars.
    On to crankshafts. I have read that the Chevy cranks gave "very good service" in a series of articles about how to build a (Chevy) race car. John Gerber kept throwing rods out of the sides of the block but I don't think that he replaced the stock crank until several seasons racing--and don't forget that he was beating the crap out of the car every weekend--and doing repairs out in the open, under a tree, with dust blowing around.
    The Ford crank is made out of 8300 series Vanadium steel--The Chevy out of 1040- common steel with at best one more "point" of carbon. To install the Ford crank, some of the block metal will have to be removed--Which will make the block weaker. I know Rufi used a Ford crank and had to do this. The whole thing becomes a choice with which part you want to worry about. I chose to get a Chevy crank Magnifluxed, and then welded counterweights on and straightened it. Got a shop to balance and grind the crank and main journals. I feel that unless you intend to go to Bonneville and are just building a hot street car that is the best choice. Your millage may vary. Putting counterweights on made life easier for the main bearings, and balance made the engine smoother. You could --and should--do this with either crank.

    Herb
     
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  16. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Thanks Herb. My friend here says the same thing. He has a couple of these in cars and a nice stash of parts including some Olds heads and his favorite '25 blocks. He has an extra set of weights he said I can copy. He already gave me a set of Durant rods. We don't want Ford parts in our Chevys anyway. :D
     
  17. brasscarguy
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 183

    brasscarguy
    Member
    from seattle

    I have some interesting 4 cylinder part I have decided not to use. I purchased a new Scat stroked crank and rods for my project. So I have the following 4 banger parts for sale.
    Olds 3 port head, Chev 2 port head, model C crank, 2 490 Chev short blocks(stronger than the 1928 blocks. Chev 1928 4 cylinder distributor and carb, intake and exhaust manifolds, and some misc stuff. 1928 steering unit with nice wood wheel. Would prefer to sell the lot, but could consider individual sales. Located in Seattle

    brasscarguy@comcast.net
     
    Six Ball likes this.
  18. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    do you have a photo of the steering wheel?
    I’ve emailed you in the past with no reply. Kind of figured you didn’t exist??
     
    camer2 likes this.
  19. Herb Kephart
    Joined: Jan 9, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Herb Kephart
    Member

    Six Ball--Can't you get your friend to join us?--I'm sure that he could contribute here.
    Herb
     
    Jiminy likes this.
  20. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Herb, I'll try. I don't know if does any of this but I know he sends emails. He would be an asset here for sure.
     
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  21. brasscarguy
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 183

    brasscarguy
    Member
    from seattle

    4 cylinder Chev Parts no longer needed:
    2 490 Chevrolet short blocks do not appear cracked.
    Oldsmobile 3 port head
    1928 Chev 2 port head casting does not appear to be cracked
    1928 Chevrolet distributor
    1928 Chevrolet carburetor
    1928 Chevrolet intake and exhaust manifolds

    Priced to sell need the space.
    brasscarguy@comcast.net
    Miss small parts and bits.
     
  22. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Our Inlines club had our annual swap meet at the above mentioned friend's shop today. For me it is Chevy four banger Heaven though Mel builds Ts too. I got an Olds 3 port head with a set of custom rockers and pushrods. I also got a great complete steering column and box with the most beautiful steering wheel I've seen outside of a museum. I'll try to post pictures tomorrow. There are some of his '25 Chevy powered racer.
     
    Jimmy B likes this.
  23. CNC-Dude
    Joined: Nov 23, 2007
    Posts: 948

    CNC-Dude
    Member

    Sounds like a great score!
     
  24. bct
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 3,099

    bct
    Member

    excellent . had a bit of luck myself . found rockers and another complete engine. all horse trading . no cash outlay.
     
  25. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Here are some pictures. The rockers appear to be 2 to 1 ratio. My friend Mel made them. He said they were tearing up the Fords (Ts & As) so bad that they were outlawed in whatever rules they were using. 100_0204.jpg 100_0201.jpg 100_0213.jpg Oh My new steering column too.

    100_0207.jpg 100_0206.jpg 100_0212.jpg 100_0213.jpg 100_0201.jpg
     
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  26. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Here are some pictures of the Chevy racer Mel is building. Almost done I can not wait to see and hear the one. It was a dirt track racer. It has a '25 block, 3 port Olds head, two see drafts, balanced crank, and a T-5 trans. He bored out some old spark plug bases and threaded them for modern plugs. I'm not sure what else in done to his engine. His T speedster runs a '28 Chevy head.
    100_0199.jpg 100_0180.jpg 100_0184.jpg 100_0181.jpg 100_0197.jpg 100_0193.jpg
     
    Jet96, Bigcheese327, RMR&C and 2 others like this.
  27. Rizhto
    Joined: Jul 30, 2007
    Posts: 80

    Rizhto
    Member

    Awesome, finally some action in this thread. If only I could find such a steering column here...
     
  28. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    I never expected to find one that nice. I bolted it to the frame yesterday and was better able to check it out. There is zero slop in the gears. There is also evidently no stop. It just keeps turning. Stops are on the spindles . Both levers work and the horn button seems fine. I'm a happy guy.
     
    Jimmy B likes this.
  29. Rizhto
    Joined: Jul 30, 2007
    Posts: 80

    Rizhto
    Member

    I actually did found a perfect column like yours some 10 years ago. Like yours, zero slop and perfectly covered in grease. However, it was from a -28 LO truck. It is currently bolted on to my uncles -26 1-ton truck.
     
  30. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,263

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Two old sayings from the California gold rush era can relate to our searches for the parts we desire.
    1. Gold is where you find it.
    2. Where it is there it is. Where it ain't there I be. :(
     
    National28, Jimmy B and NZ like this.

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