The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RedRodder, Apr 7, 2010.
The billet head Curt built.
Thanks for posting the pictures. One correction, the girdle is made from A36. My calculations say that its percentage of carbon content makes its expansion ratio close to cast iron and its a better material to work with. We turned the 557 to about 6000 and still suffered block problems. There didn't seem to be much benefit in going higher with the shrouded valves and cam limitations.
Now, THAT'S going all out!
To Whom it May Concern ::
I have a Rolling Chassis from a 1928 Chevy Pass car if someone was to want to built an Early Race car or Modified with there Chevy 4.
Cowl & some Misc Parts are also avaliable.
Contact me PM, DESOTO6X2@AOL.COM or 805-746-9011
Okay, this is killin' me! Didn't have a chance to get on the net last night, then I pop on at school (where half the pictures are blocked) and can't see any of the new pics... oon top of that, I'll be heading for a conference this weekend and NO PC!!!
Sorry for the rant...
Pat, thanks for the info on the '28 engine- will PM you when I have a chance (my 1st Grade class is heading in right now )
Extrapolating from the above, it looks like a 1.25" spacer/adaptor could be used to take up the extra input-shaft length when bolting the Model A transmission to the Chevy bellhousing. The Chevy crank could be drilled larger to accept the Ford pilot bearing, and the Chevy flywheel could be machined to accept the Model A clutch and pressure plate.
Does that sound about right? Am I missing anything?
PS Mac, do you want me to save the pictures and e-mail them to you? PM me your e-mail address.
Source: CHEVROLET CASTING NUMBERS 1924 TO 1928 (Revised May 17 2002) By Ken Kaufmann, Monrovia, California: email@example.com; and David Hayward, Southampton, England: firstname.lastname@example.org
I've never heard about this smashing blocks deal. Why did they do that, to take the car off the used market?
Yes, it was to take used cars off the market that Chevy told the dealers to break them. The factory gave the dealer some amount for each car "destroyed"
If the last castings were a batch made for stock in 1929, there must have been a VERY large number because in 1940 Chevy issued a price list of parts fitting the four cylinder cars. There were two style blocks '26-'27 and '28 and four heads listed- single port small valves, single port larger valves, two port, and "export".
Must have been one heck of a pile of castings laying around somewhere, if they could offer that much variety 12 years later, without making any new castings.
I'd say thats about right. But remember, Those were steel tape measurements and are close. If you want I can try to fit the Model A trans to the Chev bell housing tomorrow. I think I would try a different clutch than the Model A. A later Ford three lever maybe? You still have to address the throwout fork difference. Anything can be done but you basically need all the parts in front of you and then start fitting and modifying. You need to ask your self is the end product going to be worth it. Norm
Use the ford V8 pressure plate.
It has 3 fingers unstead of the cone fingers, is easier to depress yet it offers more pressure to the plate.
It also has centrifugal weights that clamp harder with rpm.
Many Model a guys have the 50 + lb model A flywheels machined down about 20 lbs and have them drilled for the V8 pressure plate.
Did you guys see http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515355 thread about the DO Hal? Nice picture of a tubular connecting rod.
..great info on how to fit up a Model A trans....but do you know the best way to "beef up" the stock 28 Chevy clutch/trans assembly...if I am able to 50-60 HP out of this motor how much do feel the drive assembly needs to be modified? or is it best to convert to a late model trans? Jim
My feling is that one of the best improvements to an old car that you can do--driving wise--is to put a modern transmission in.
Yes, I can double-clutch, have for years, can even shift a stock A up and down without the clutch with no grinding (easier with the 68 lb flywheel)--but modern (better than 32-48 Ford) syncros make it SOOO much easier, and quicker!
The stock Ford A trans. Is a lot better than the Chevy (hardly any surprise there) because of better gear material, and all roller and ball bearings.
I didn't think about the clutch fork not working with the larger throwout bearing.
I have an entire Model A bellhousing - maybe I could just adapt that to the back of the Chevrolet block?
Thanks for the advice about the V8 pressure plate guys, though that's a bit frustrating as I have a couple Model A pieces laying around already - and it would violate my self-imposed '32-and-earlier rule.
Sandbarfarm, if I wasn't being persnickity about period correct parts on this build, I'd be awfully tempted to follow Herb's instructions about adapting a Volvo 4-speed. I kinda doubt a '28 Chevy 3-speed is much tougher than a Model T planetary, and given the conversation we've already had about GM metullargy in this era, it might be significantly weaker.
You anticipated me. I pulled out the other parts (rear block housing, etc.) and tried fitting it all ways. The way that may work best is all Ford. The block housing could be machined and drilled to fit the back od the chev block. You would have to make a reinforcement plate for the bolt flange because it would be just the thin casting at that point. The two upper bolt holes on the Ford housing would have nothing to fasten to. I've heard of A bellhousings cracking in this area so you'd need to keep that in mind. I would machine the clutch mounting flange off the chev flywheel and use the ford V8 clutch. Not sure about what the differance in the in the flywheel face measurements would be. That would deternine how long the TOB coller would have to be.
Note: Got to thinking about this as I was writing. Its been done before. John Gerber did it on his racer. He use an "open" Ford bellhousing but I can't remember if he was using A or T stuff. Hope this helps. - Norm
FWIW, the guys on the MTFCA forum said Gerber mated the Chevy block to a Model T Ford pan.
Thanks for the info and advice. I've got some thinking and comparing to do, clearly. I need to get my Ford and Chevy bits together in the same room for comparison.
Herb..I have to agree that having a syncro trans makes sense...just wondering if its better to go with Volvo or the S-10 5 speed?
Dave...you are right about the early bowtie metallurgy ..know its been discussed at length here.....I also am torn about staying 'period correct'..but..
After looking at all the recent photos posted on here, I am sure excited about building on of these motors....may have to put the Mercruiser 181 4 cyl build aside to start this one.....!!!!!!!!!
I also found this:
I guess I'm speechless. The 557 car. I feel like I'm riding a horse through the space age. I'd like to know more about this effort. Curt talked about block failure?? The head was machined on what looks like an fairly ordinary mill?? How long have they been doing this stuff? Maybe I should read his profile. Wow!!!
It dosn't even look like an ordinary mill. Looks like one of those belt drive Chinese made Enco mills that I had one of once. If the poor mechanic blames his tools the exceptional mechanic must rise above his tools. Great work.
Followed my own advice and read the profile. NOW I understand. One thing about the HAMB, every day you learn something. Or 100 somethings. Norm
You're right Rich. I bought the mill from Grizzley Imports in Bellingham, Washington. Two things bothered me about it when doing the machine work. The dials are marked in .125" increments, which took some getting used to, and the head was 22 inches long and the mill has 19 inches of travel which meant multiple set ups. I was 3 when Dad, Chuck, Rufi and Duke last went to El Mirage with the old care and I pleaded to go. Of course they didn't take me. So it took me 45 years and a lot of effort to get to go racing with Dad. This was a one-off project. I said more than once during the building of the parts, that it was a good thing it wasn't a V8 cause I wouldn't have had the drive to finish it.
The engine is really a thing of beauty. People who only getting to see the pictures are missing something. The whole car is outstanding.
Congratulations on a job well done, Curt!
Thank you for the compliments, gentlemen. I got sidetracked and forgot to answer the question about block problems. Of the three blocks I got from Duane, one was Dad's old engine that Duane had gotten from him in 1952, the second was one that Duane had modified and run himself and the third was a virgin block. Duane had had some misfortune with Dad's old engine and consequently the front two cylinders were sleeved. There were also cracks appearing around the bases of the front cylinders where they attach to the crankcase. The second block showed cracks in the same area. The third block was the one we chose to build for the 557. Because I was building a head from scratch, I wanted to add some more head stud bosses. I used 1" gray cast iron and had my friend Marty McCay weld them into the deck and water jacket in three places. One of the pictures shows him sitting on the ground with the block in front of him. The water jacket area of these blocks seems so contaminated with impurities he almost lost his little remaining hair trying to do a good job. That area seeped water for the two years we ran the block. After Bonneville '95, that block showed cracks in the same area as the other two. Joe Boghosian of Boghosian Racing Engines whom we met that year in Bonneville, suggested milling an inch off the top of the block and filling the remaining water jacket with aluminum and then adding a 1 inch deck plate to the top of the block. That's what I did to the second engine and tied the deck plate to the girdle with 9, 1 inch pre-heat-treated 4340 stand offs. After it was completed, Dad said, "Now if it's going to blow, it's gonna have to come out the sides".
heres an engine for one of you.
here is a short article on a 1916 chev 490. It went to Australia in 1923 then to New Zealand in the 70s where it was restored. Dennis sold it in the 90s and I believe it is back in the US - does anyone know where it is now.
Dennis talks about a 3 port fronty head which I believe he still has. I seem to remember Gerber briefly using a fronty head with no success. Has anyone seen one of these heads?
Finally - I understand that the Chev FB 3 port head has removable valve guides while the olds 3 port doesn't - is this correct.
I don't believe ANY of the heads that fit the Chevy 4 cylinder Saganaw block had replaceable guides. There are no guides listed in the Chevy parts book, and I had 2 Olds heads which had non-replaceable guides. The stock valves have 5/16" stems, so worn guides can be reamed to 11/32" or 3/8"
This morning, I found out there’s some more precedent for what I’m doing with my engine: In the late 1930s, Jack Calori (better known for his ‘29 roadster and ‘36 coupe) built a ‘26 Ford roadster on a ‘26 Ford frame with a three-port Olds equipped ‘24 Chevy banger.
Now, maybe I can find a picture...
The fellow who originally owned Stu Hillborn's streamliner apparently ran it with an Olds equipped Chevy 4 as well!
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