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1928 chevy 4cyl motor

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RedRodder, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. little skeet
    Joined: Jan 27, 2008
    Posts: 300

    little skeet
    Member
    from huston

    The 1928 Chevy dragster was originally built in the Winter of 1959. My dad and I built it. The engine has a custom ground to our specs camshaft done by Fenton. For pistons, since stock is very low compression, we went to a parts store. Got out their piston specs book and started looking. We found an International six cylinder truck engine that was within .020 of being the same bore and used the same size wrist pin.
    We did not bore out the cylinders. Instead of boring, we used a hone and set of taper feeler gauges. Honed out the cylinders and taper fitted each one. The International pistons have a very nice high shaped dome and good combustion squench area. They work really well in the 4 banger. The engine runs the stock rods and mains and a beefed up stock oil pump. We used small block Chevy valves and springs. Ported the head ourselves and made our own intake and exhaust systems. The engine is in a 1959 Chasis Research dragster frame. It was a "you weld it together kit" from California. I raced it in the X/Dragster class @ Julesburg, Scottsbluff, Cheyenne, and CDR drag strips. My younger brother and I restored it in 1994 and put it back into it's current shape. We take it out about once a year and run it at a nostaglia meet and take it to car show too. Never got beat by a Model A in NHRA competition drag racing.

    "Wan't anbody there except me and Little Skeet"
     
  2. dawford- sorry for missing that- post some pics when it goes together!

    little skeet- sounds like a fun rail!
     
  3. dawford,

    Do have one question- how many Chevy 6's do you need to go through to get a set of rocker arms for the 4? If I understand correctly, there's only 2 rocker arms per engine that would work, so that's 4 engines worth (unless the 216's are all straight)...

    I like the idea of a hollow shaft, but there may still be options other than hobbling 4 stovebolts :D.
     
  4. dawford
    Joined: Apr 25, 2010
    Posts: 499

    dawford
    Member

    Mac,

    I went knuckle diving in my parts washer and took the other half of the 216 rocker shaft apart and there are 6 straight rocker arms.

    So to make it work out even you will need 4 sets to get 24 which is enough for 3 heads. Just kidding.

    2 complete shafts will yield 12 straight rockers, enough for 1 head and 4 spare arms.

    The 2 complete rocker shafts will also yield 4 shafts, plenty of risers, springs, keepers, washers and 2 oilers.

    :) :) :) Dick :) :) :)
     
  5. bct
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 3,008

    bct
    Member

    its amazing what information sharing can accomplish ....i'd sure love to see that dragster in person!
     
  6. little skeet,

    If you ever open that engine up again, it would be great to see the pistons! Did you run babbitt, or use inserts?

    Dick,
    Thanks again for the 216 info... just have to find a rodder who's "getting rid of that junk" 6 now :D.

    NORSONAUTO,
    Sorry for the lack of info on the Saturn lifters- they were found on quick run through the local yard and I didn't have time to get the info, but it was a mid 90's car with an OHV engine. The lifters are about 1/16" larger than the stock '28, so some machining is required and you will need to make new plates to keep them from rotating. If I can find the car again, I'll get specific info.

    Anyone- what would it cost to have a new camshaft ground? Isky would only regrind truck cams for Spurgin/Giovanine and they're hard to find (and probably cost more to buy/have reground).
     
  7. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,760

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    For my un-namable brand of banger when I wanted a billet cam Joe Panak of Roto-Faze made mine. You could Google Roto-Faze.
     
  8. Thanks Rich... are you EVER going to forgive me :D:D:D???
     
  9. Thanks to everybody, who has contributed, to this very informative and entertaining thread. What an interesting read, can't wait for more updates.:)
     
  10. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,760

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Joe just makes the billet. You still have to take it to your cam grinder to end up with a cam
     
  11. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    In the past months, someone from Oz, or NZ asked about Indian MC cam profiles, and I promised some drawings of Ollie and Shunk cam lobes that I had.

    Unable to find (or more accurately stumble across) the drawings, I now suspect that I loaned them out so someone could copy them at a time when my copy machine took a crap.

    In any event, here is a website that has a bunch of info on Indian cams, and other info about getting the flatheads to go faster.

    I am going to cross post this, as I'm not sure which topic the request was on.

    <cite>www.[B]performanceindian.com[/B]/

    Worth a look.

    Herb Kephart
    </cite>
     
  12. Bill, it was Ed Winfield who did the Spurgin/Giovanine cam and he would only use the Chev FB cam.
     
  13. Thanks Jimmy- couldn't remember which it was last night... had a 50/50 shot!
     
  14. little skeet
    Joined: Jan 27, 2008
    Posts: 300

    little skeet
    Member
    from huston

    little skeet,

    If you ever open that engine up again, it would be great to see the pistons! Did you run babbitt, or use inserts?

    Still running the babbitt on the rods and mains. My dad was a mechanic back in the early days and could pour and make his own babbitt bearings. I watched him pour and then cut the bearings with a bearing cutter by hand. Also helped him "burn in bearings" when we rebuilt Model A engines.
     
  15. Harry Bergeron
    Joined: Feb 10, 2009
    Posts: 345

    Harry Bergeron
    Member
    from SoCal

    Mac the Yankee:

    For Nissan diesels see also SD30 and SD33 in IH Scouts and pickpus 71-80?
     
  16. Thanks Harry- will do!
     
  17. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 465

    NORSON
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Spent the evening with the Federal-Mogul book and could find no simple matches. The problem is tat if the bearing is close to the correct diameter then the length is way short. if the length is good then the diameter is way too large. In thinking outside the box, could you use two bearings of the correct diameter on a journal?? Could you use a bearing of the correct lenth, but too long and "roll" it to the correct diameter?? Could you use a cam bearing of the correct diameter and cut it in half and use the shells?? Could you machine inserts as Rich Fox did and apply a thin layer of babbit dirrectly to them?? Could you line bore the block to take a larger available bearing and biuld up the crank journals to fit?? What grades of babbit are available?
    I'm going away for a week so I'll play with this further at that time. I have a U-Pull it up the street that has a number of Saturns. Was the Saturn a 4 cyl or a V6? All the engines are still in one piece, so I'ii tear into them when I return. I want to follow up on the International piston thing too.
     
  18. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,760

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    On my brand X motors i did use 2 or even 3 inserts to make up the length necessary. In some cases (Thrust brearing) I cut the flange off one end if one insert and the other end of the other. If there was a gap in the center between the inserts it seemed OK and served the same purpose as the groove normally made in to main bearings to transfer oil to the rod bearings. Worked fine for me.
     
  19. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    NORSONAUTO asked-

    Could you use a bearing of the correct lenth, but too long and "roll" it to the correct diameter??

    While the practical answer to this is- no, because it would be nearly impossible to reform the insert accurately to a new, smaller radius, and also to cut off the excess length, leaving just enough standing above the parting surface to get the proper crush.

    Having said that, I have to admit that I gave the idea some thought a while back. I have to believe that the steel backing has the copper and babbit layers applied as a continuous strip, which is then cut and formed (or formed and cut) to the dimensions for the intended application. If this is true, how does the factory perform these operations without leaving a single mark or blemish in the babbit surface? It might be that the babbit layer is thicker to start with, and the inserts are paired up and bored as a last operation--but this does not explain how the (almost) perfect half circle is formed in the tri-metal blank. Cannot be rolled, as a rolling process leaves a flat area at either end, so it must be pressed to a slightly smaller radius to allow for springback. Is anyone out there privy to how this whole series of operations is carried out? Also, any ideas on how to reform finished inserts to a smaller radius? A mirror finish male die, and a female the new size? How about a male die with a reasonably smooth finish, and a layer of aluminum foil to avoid marking the babbit? I see this as the more difficult of the two problems, as the length (and crush amount) could be hand fitted with considerable care, and the proper amount of crush force could correct small errors in the radius by forcing against the block and/or cap bore.

    Any comments/ideas/ridicule/ laughter?

    Herb Kephart
     
  20. For Nissan Diesel parts in North America, you can also try Volvo/Mack/UD(Nissan Diesel) dealers. Volvo actually owns Nissan Diesel now. I found info regarding this at www.bigmacktrucks.com which is operated by Watt's Mack.
     
  21. Bigcheese327
    Joined: Sep 16, 2001
    Posts: 6,659

    Bigcheese327
    Member

    The process for modifying insert bearings to fit sounds considerably more difficult than just pouring babbitt. I guess I must misunderstand the reasons for going from babbitt to inserts, care to give it to me in a nutshell?

    -Dave
     
  22. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    Dave-

    You are right- it is more work, and that is why I said that practically it was impossible.

    The reason behind my line of thinking on the matter some time back, was what to do where a block had been converted to inserts- and the inserts that were used were no longer available.

    My only concern with the typical poured babbit is the quality of the babbit and the workmanship- if I do it, I know that it suits me.

    Herb
     
  23. NORSONAUTO- it was a 4... I'll be back in GA this weekend and will try to get to the yard to get info if I can.
     
  24. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 465

    NORSON
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Mac the Yankee
    I was at U-Pull It today. All the 4 cyls I found were either OHC or DOHC. Dug into a V6 and I believe they are what you were talking about. They are about .047 in larger and 3/16ths taller than the '28s. The guides are plastic in the saturn and the bore spacings will not align. It should be easy to make them out of aluminum. I think these lifters should be common to this small GM V6. I bought 12 of them ($13.00) and plan to lay them out and make sure It'll work. If I can figure out how to post pictures I will.
     
  25. NORSONAUTO,

    Sounds good! Mine had steel guides- post some pics if you get a chance... my summer job was supposed to start tomorrow, but things are slow, so I may pop over to the local yard and will let you know if I find the elusive OHV 4.
     
  26. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 465

    NORSON
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Rich Fox used Fedral-Mogul Inserts on his not chevy so I desided to follow his lead and see what could be found. All bearings will require sleeves to work. All will need more than one bearing per journal. several will require polishing the crank to size.

    Front Main #3737 CAW - 1.3785 dia. x.660 - four needed - Fits Bendix-Westinghouse ????

    Center Main #4-2965 CP - 1.6254 x .880 - two needed - fits British Layland - Crank will need to be ground undersize - Use Chev shells as base and retain the original thrust surface???

    Rear Main #9625 AP - 1.7490/1.750 x 1.060 three needed - Case Co.

    Rod Bearing #9885 CP - 1.4990/1.500 x 1.000 Two needed per rod

    The catalog I'm using is from 1991. I think I'm coming to the same conclusion as EBTM3 and this may be the wrong aproach. EBTM3 carried this subject over to the June Banger thread and has got some very good input. I'm hoping He'll bring it over here. The Idea would be to make steel or bronze shells and put a thin layer of GOOD babbit In them.
     
  27. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,760

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One thing I noticed when modifing insert bearings to work in brand X motors is that the steel backing is very soft. Lots of lead in that steel. I don't know why. Maybe just to make it easy to machine then when new. But it's not much like regular cold rolled. Or hot rolled either
     
  28. Rich,

    May be a dumb question, but could it have been for better adhesion with the babbitt?
     
  29. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    Probably soft steel to minimize "spring back" when forming to the shaft/bore diameter.


    Herb
     
  30. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    NORSONAUTO wrote-
    <table id="post5333836" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_5333836" style="border-right: 1px solid rgb(229, 229, 229);">The catalog I'm using is from 1991. I think I'm coming to the same conclusion as EBTM3 and this may be the wrong aproach. EBTM3 carried this subject over to the June Banger thread and has got some very good input. I'm hoping He'll bring it over here. The Idea would be to make steel or bronze shells and put a thin layer of GOOD babbit In them.
    <!-- / message --> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border-width: 0px 1px 1px; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(229, 229, 229) rgb(229, 229, 229);"> [​IMG] [​IMG] </td> <td class="alt1" style="border-width: 0px 1px 1px 0px; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(229, 229, 229) rgb(229, 229, 229) -moz-use-text-color;" align="right"> <!-- controls --> [​IMG]</td></tr></tbody></table>I think that the post that you are referring to was written by T Head--a very knowledgeable gu6y who works on antique car engines for a living.

    It is post #101 in the June banger forum, and anyone that is interested in the subject of Chevy (just heard last night that GM will no longer use that name, instead using the complete "Chevrolet"---I don't give a d##m what GM calls them!) bearings take a look at it-- good advice from some one else who has done it.

    I would be willing to bet that the three main bearing choices that Norsonauto found would be hard (if not impossible)to find now, as his information source is 19 years old, and the applications probably weren't that common even back then. Of course with an up to date book it is possible to find apps. that weren't around 19 years ago.

    With normal street use (and perhaps an occasional hillclimb) it is likely that a properly done insert OR babbit job will outlast the owner of the car--racing is a totally different picture. As I have said before, those who build racing engines will have their own ideas how things should be done, but they are building for maximum horsepower, whereas a street engine should be peppy, but also have a degree of longevity. It is a matter of balancing one against the other.

    One last thought-- If the decision to use inserts is made, buy TWO engine sets. You probably won't ever need the second, but then again, you won't have to worry if they are still available. Cheap peace of mind.


    Herb
     

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