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Projects 1925 Model Tchev banger

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Andrew Mccann, Aug 6, 2016.

  1. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    Why is the steering box on the wrong side?
     
  2. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    wrong sided parts are cheaper. Not a great excuse I know.
     
    Dannerr likes this.
  3. cool-a$$ build - watching
     
  4. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,278

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Wow, Just found this thread. I like this build. It's always good to see a Ford get a good engine.:cool: By the way the rod and piston length chart on page 2 is my contribution to the interested. Glad you found it! :)
     
  5. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Great list sixball
    We just need to add A pistons with A rods to it, for anyone brave or dumb enough to try

    Regards thinking the front end. The upside-down shackles army working. Too low and not strong enough for me.
    Either an s bracket with the spring back on top of axle or shackles on the wishbones.

    Picked up another transmission this week. No idea what it is, weather it's a T accessory or a hodge-pudge...

    IMG_3814.JPG
     
    indestructableforce likes this.
  6. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    looks like chev box for cone clutch so pre 1925. Shifter looks like 1928.
     
    Jimmy B likes this.
  7. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Thanks for the ID Kume.
    It's got square drives in it for T use so I'll take a look inside and see how it has been modified.
    I guess these boxes are made of the same cheese steel as the rest of the Chevy stuff?
     
  8. Those square drives should be correct for early Chevrolet- my '22 490 has them. the ears on the sides are for the brackets that hold the tranny the back of the engine block, and yes... same cheesy steel :p
     
  9. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    History lesson please Kume.
    We're Dodge Brothers casting stuff for Chevrolet in the early days, similar to what they were doing for Ford?
    The DB logo is on the casing of this box.
     
  10. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,278

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Chevrolet cast Bow Ties into almost everything. I'd be surprised if it is Chevrolet and doesn't have Bow Ties on the case and the gears themselves. If that is a standard 3 speed turn it backwards and make it an overdrive.
     
  11. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Ok so not DB.... open your eyes Mccann....

    I'm off to count teeth and work out the ratios. Unless anyone knows them?
    I have 1928 ratios. See if it's reasonable to run it backwards. I do like the idea.


    IMG_3822.JPG IMG_3823.JPG
     
  12. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,278

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    With a bell on both ends it appears that this unit was meant to fit into a closed drive shaft behind another transmission. There were Chevrolet transmissions that used that casting number but I don't think this is one. I have seen that logo but can not remember what it is. My friend in high school many years ago had a 1925 Model T truck that had a two speed "Brownie" behind the T transmission. It had a high and low gear. In low you could walk faster than the truck. In high it would go faster than we wanted to drive it. It had a direct position too that made it one to one straight through. It looked a lot like this one. I bet it is an after market add on.
    I'd like to see more pictures with the sliding gears in different positions so I can see the gears below the main shaft. Does the slider in the center engage the teeth of the gear at the rear of the box? The teeth on that gear show wear where something runs on them. That may be reverse. Are there two 1/2 length cluster gears in the bottom? This thing is cool but it will be noisy.
     
  13. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    Internals look chev but I couldn't find a chev gearbox part number ending in 14181!
    Any part number on shifter - should be 590280
    Also turning box around will give you six gears but no overdrive.
     
  14. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    IMG_3825.JPG IMG_3826.JPG IMG_3827.JPG IMG_3828.JPG IMG_3829.JPG IMG_3830.JPG IMG_3831.JPG I love a mystery. Keep it coming guys.
    It's a 3 speed.
    Mesh gears are 14/31
    2nd is 20/25 ratio 1.77
    1st is 27/18 ratio 3.32
    According to some notes I have that's the same as '28 chev
    The reverse idler is an odd set-up to me
    Second gear would be a little more agreeable as a flipped overdrive than a model A box which I think has around 1.85 second.
    3rd would be out of the question.

    I have never minded a bit of gear noise. Helps to drown out the thumping mains.

    Kume there is a number on the shifter but it's at work soaking in a bucket. I'll check later. I'm confused over the no overdrive thing (?)
     
  15. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Shifter number checks out

    IMG_3903.JPG
     
  16. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,278

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

  17. Burkedore
    Joined: Nov 9, 2013
    Posts: 146

    Burkedore
    Member

    I really like what you are doing with this project. I have some '26 star transmissions I have been thinking of turning around and using as an overdrive. I wonder if the fact that the coast side of the teeth become the drive side means the gears would run smoother? Should be less wear on that side right?
     
  18. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Six Ball. You got it in one! Well found.
    Burkedore. I'm not sure we could find any pre-war box that ran smooth...
    I am keen on this idea of flipping a box for OD
    I was put off the model A as a few people said the gearing just wouldn't be right. This has a slightly better 2nd gear.
    I think the Chicago accessory T box had a 1.5 ish OD so this is getting somewhere close
     
  19. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,278

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    It took a while but I had fun looking for it. I did not know that the 490 Chevy trans mounted that way. I also didn't understand that the whole front piece rotated. I thought it was a closed driveline connection. Now that we know it is early Chevrolet we know there is a strength issue. Used as a OD most of the time it will be in 3rd and power will pass through with no real load on it while accelerating. You'll likely only shift into 2nd for OD on the highway or at highway speed. With a T transmission I doubt if if you'll ever be in low in the T and 2nd in the Chevy. I should be fun. Some of the early Chevy six performance guys ran Ford transmissions for the strength.
     
  20. upload_2017-9-25_22-41-4.jpeg

    Here's what it looks like all together- wish I had pics of my '22 before I blew it apart... will hopefully be getting it back together soon(er than later) :D

    I may have to use a later shifter tower, so that I can get the Chicago aux transmission to fit...
     
    Dannerr likes this.
  21. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Rotating front piece Six Ball? The bell you mean? It's fixed on mine
    Mac, your running a Chicago behind the chev?
    I still don't fully understand this.
    Have you got a flange mount on the front of yours mac? Like the eBay link?
     
  22. Don't think I have the flange on the front of my trans- think it's more like the pic I shared in post 110, but will check tonight and let you know. I may run the Chicago auxiliary trans behind my '22 490- that will give me overdrive/more gears/etc. Would really like to find a Ruckstell 2 speed rear, but don't feel like shelling out the $$$$$$ for one...
     
  23. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    Not sure if these help but front drive flange is Part number 763. I would think the later conventional clutch boxes would be easier to turn around. Superior cone clutch models didn't have the shifter extension like Mac's but they are all interchangeable from 490 to National. The 25 shifter is the coolest with handbrake directly behind gear stick.
     

    Attached Files:

  24. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    Mac I would think a Ruxtell would just add more unsprung weight. My understanding is that they were an underdrive but gave more flexibility if you are running a T transmission. I think Mr Model T runs one in his roadster as well as an overdrive box.
     
  25. Kume,

    Correct- Clayton is running both a Warford auxiliary trans and a Ruckstell rear- he loves it! If I understand it correctly, having more gears allows you to get more out of a narrow power band (kind of like the difference between a 3 speed and an 18 speed bicycle).
     
  26. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,278

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    You guys are just making me a little bit crazy. I did most of it to myself. On the front I don't know what turns and what doesn't. Does it hook up to a closed driveline or does the whole piece spin?
    There was a Truckstell Tip-Toe-Matic OD that fitted into a closed driveline. There is one in a 50s Chevy pickup here that belongs to a dysfunctional family in constant turmoil. The drive line is pristine stock. All linkage is in place and complete. I've almost had it twice but they go in some other direction. Eventually it will go to the next generation of crack heads and be swapped out for a 350-350 or just sold for dope to a street rodder. These are cool and rare units.
    https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=342029
     
  27. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    Haha yea 18 speeds in a T. Imagine how busy you could be between standstill and 45 miles an hour, you would need 18 gears with the extra weight but as you say Clayton loves his setup. A lot of the vintage car guys in NZ fit aluminium triumph overdrive units out of 1970s 2.5s which could be an option for Andrew living in Blighty.
     
  28. Yeah, the Laycock (that really is the brand name!) overdrive? They also came in 120/140/240/740/940 Volvos, so if it's just for avability, look for junk Volvo's too.
     
  29. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    On second thoughts I wonder if you could use the drive gear from a 490 or early superior box and fit it to a 1925-28 box that way you have a square drive that you could fit a universal joint to and get rid of the clutch plate spline shaft. The standard universal joint bell can be bolted to the front of a later box which would now be on the back. Wow even I am confused but I have a selection of boxes I might try a mock up.
     
  30. Kume
    Joined: Jan 23, 2010
    Posts: 892

    Kume
    Member

    This is Herbs contribution to the chev overdrive idea from the 1928 chev thread and the reason for my skepticism as ebtm3 is the last word on these matters.

    As to turning transmissions around to make an O/D.
    You end up with two things that make it impractical.
    1 Too much of a good thing in that there is too great a step between direct and O/D
    2 Deaf as a tree stump from the noise.

    Too many other ways to get an O/D

    The biggest improvement that you can make in a pre '35 or so car is to put a modern transmission in. Even if you do nothing to the engine, you will have better acceleration because of the ratios being closer, and the shifts being quicker.
    I said that to Bill Long, one time of Shafer & Long Restorations and he stopped for a moment and said
    ''Yeah, you're right--just no one will believe you. Try to convince a Mercer owner of that.''

    Herb
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1928-chevy-4cyl-motor.463465/page-52#post-11132664

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
    46international and Dannerr like this.

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