You better not be using a 40 ford front end! The reversed eye model A spring is already headed to you and it won't fit a 40 front end. I recommend a pre 36 axle, it gives you a little drop, allows you to bolt it in with model A parts, and if you end up splitting the wishbones you'll have a better turning radius. But that's just me Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
That's a good wishlist for your grand vision of the build, but if your goal is to get going sooner than later and on a budget, you've got some redundant stuff there. Stuff I don't think you need: 1940 ford rearend - You've got a rear end with brakes already, you just need to weld on spring mounts. 1940 ford front axle - You have a Model A front end which will work, what you need is 37-48/F1 spindles. Wishbone or something like that - You have one on the Model A front end, what you will need is a splitting kit and frame mounts. Flathead engine - You need AN engine that will get you on the road, but holding out for a flathead & trans isn't a bad thing. What I think you DO need: 37-48/F1 spindles - To mount Juice Brakes. Tie Rod/Rod Ends - To go with new spindles. Juice brakes - Like I said, keep your eyes out for a set of F1's with the spindles. I've got a driver side spindle that I can use to check the steering arm fitment on a stock Model A steering setup, I'll try to let you know if it works. If not, these spindles do take a little work to add steering arms. See @Beau's Modified Build as well as mine for some insight. 39-48 Juice brakes are an easier deal but may cost more money. Rear Radius Rods & torque arm or Ladder Bars An Engine - You need an engine that will get you on the road, but holding out for a flathead & trans isn't a bad thing. See what folks think about a Flat 6 out of a truck. You find them complete with trans pretty often and it would get you going in a light car and wouldn't require total boxing. Transmission - to go with whichever engine you get. Engine/Trans Mounts - to go with whichever engine/trans you get. Steering column - If you don't have the stock one, you certainly do. Pedals - Sometimes these will come along with a Motor/Trans swap, so don't be afraid to ask. A model A seat - You can make a bench out of scrap pallet wood to start with... be sure to sand it down first. Radiator - if you run a flathead V8, the 28/29 won't work without modification. Just like pedals, sometimes you can get a radiator along with an engine/trans if the guy is swapping out everything. Also, As I recall, an early Mustang radiator will fit. Grade 8 hardware Spring Bushings Wiring Harness & wire Lights Gauges Exhaust tubing & muffler Plywood for you floor 1" box tube to replace the wood in the body BOOKS AND MAGAZINES!! - Yes, all of them. TOOLS: A good Powerdrill and a good set of bits with doubles (you will break them) Bit drivers Hacksaw Angle Grinder MAP gas torch Wrenches & Sockets... cheater bar Pry bar
My 1949 ford rear is pretty wide and it'll make the wheels stick out funny. All the other stuff you said is spot on, thanks for putting it all in perspective and bringing me back down to earth! What's grade 8 hardware?
Keep in mind, nelsoncoupe, that in most things - including daily-driven hot rods - form should follow function. In short, this means that you should DECIDE HOW YOU WILL ACTUALLY USE your roadster before you begin collecting parts for it. Then collect only the parts that will fit into your desired useage plan. For example, if your plans call for a daily-driven car that will see any freeway use at all, forget the flathead/banger motors. Sure, they are romantic powerplants but they can't be expected to give you sufficient reliable power at a reasonable cost in today's world. Ignore the advice from guys who tell you that such a motor in perfect condition will fall from the sky - free! - and will never break in daily use on today's highways. They are delusional. The pre-'48 Ford suspension, on the other hand, is far more robust and will serve you well in daily use for many years - and it's cheap/easy to repair. In my opinion, a "classic" A/V8 suspension, converted to open drive and using early Ford juice brakes is about optimum for your needs. If it were mine and I were in your position, I'd elect for an early '60s 283 with aluminum Powerglide. They are everywhere at very reasonable prices, fit well within the Model A engine bay, produce adequate power and performance but not so much as to break the early Ford rear gears or overtax the early Ford brakes, are comparitively lightweight, are cheap and easy to repair, and fit well within the "traditional hot rod" perameters. Good luck! And be aware that coming up with the RIGHT plan is almost always more difficult than carrying it out.
Nelson--find some old guys in yur neighborhood to help out. They'll steer u in the right direction & may even have spare parts for u. I know I could sure use a 17yr olds drive & ambition around here Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Hi nelsoncoupe.Welcome aboard.Great foundation for a great driver.Listen to these guys and gals.They ARE the real deal. Good luck.Have fun.Be safe. Leo
Does anyone have a 47-48 ford wishbone? I heard they have a bend in the tube so you don't have to split them to get the car lower.
If you plan on using a 283 w/open drive you don't need '46-'48 rear wishbones. They are made to fit a torque tube or enclosed driveshaft like what's in all the early Ford drivelines. If you are dead set on using a flatty for an engine, you could do a torque tube style driveline or convert it to open driveline which is commonly found in the F1 pickups. For an open drive line, there are MANY options for rear suspension setups. One most commonly used is a ladder bar type suspension,(for pics of one look at Pete and Jakes website, or So-Cal speedshops website). Another rear setup which I like is a triangulated 4-bar setup, commonly found on '32 Ford cars. Stay away from straight 4-bar setups. They are fine for a fendered car but look "odd" in a fenderless car. You don't need a mega adjustable rear setup, you need something simple but effective. Do you have a Speedway Motors catalog? if not go online to their website and order one, it's free and they have a lot of different styles of suspensions for you to look at, and to see what would be the best for your application. Even if you don't order from them, it's good to look at what's out there, and inform yourself. Don't look at the project as one big huge undertaking, look at it as small little chunks at a time. What's the best way to eat an elephant? one bite at a time. If you get overwhelmed or frustrated at times walk away from it, take a few days if you need to, it's not a race like they show you on "American Hotrod" with fictitious deadlines. The first one is always gonna take you longer than the next one will.
Bolts, screws, washers, nuts that can be found at your local hardware store. Grade 8 is the strongest tensile strength made to take abuse and not fracture/break. It's usually gold anodized in color. These are what you want to use for suspension, body mounting, engine/driveline mounting. Grade 5 is less strong but used a lot for stuff that doesn't see a lot of stress. Body hardware bolts, trim screws, body panel installation bolts/screws. It's usually zinc colored
, The reason for the bending in is to meet the torque tube mounting point once the tube has been shortened to fit into an AV8. The shorter style of the '46-'48 "disappear" under a car with a shorter wheelbase such as an A. This does not lower the car. Stepping the rear crossmember, removing rear leaves, lowers the car. This is explained in the Vern Tardel book. This is on the rear suspension. The front wishbone on a '46-'48 does have a bend towards the axle side,on the bottom, for clearance of steering components, tie rods, but it looks too heavy in an AV8, plus it's a spring-in-front design not like the spring-over-axle design the A originally came with. These wishbones are not an exact bolt in on an A chassis, different design altogether of the chassis.
I would go with the 4 banger out of a 80's mustang(if you find a donor car that's not rotted out id buy the chassis) or even one out of a pinto if you can find it as it would be carbureted already these engines make decent MPG and should be not to pricey.
Go down to the drug store and buy you a 3 ring binder, 3 hole punch, and a package of dividers. Set it up in sections. 1. Frame 2. Brakes 3. Steering 4. Engine 5. Transmission 6. Axle 7. Electrical 8. Body Do you see what's going on here? You will always know for sure hat parts are in your car. You'll also have a place to keep your plan at. You are fixing to find out what being an American is all about. Car people are the cream of the crop. Be very careful with the Model A people as they shy away from rodders. Have fun and be safe. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
I don't mean to stir the pot because this thread seems to have some rather ridiculous options for Derek and this specific build. And I realize you are just listing possible routes but open drive rear setups would not (in my opinion) be a good route for someone with zero experience building cars. Especially when they could get a good condition model A rearend for most likely nothing, $100 max. A model A rear would be ideal for this project regardless of engine. It would easily handle a stock engine or a flathead. And it would require ZERO fabrication or measurements to install in the car, even with a flathead out front, it's the perfect length. You could even put a sbc in front if it came to that... If you don't dump the clutch it would handle a sbc with an early ford trans. Plus you can bolt on any early ford drums and juice brakes. Just my opinion... But if I build another Av8 I will be using an A rear because it is so simple compared to a v8 rear. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
What's up, nelsoncoupe. I'm stoked to see what you'll whip together. I'm in the same boat, chipping away at a list of cool shit I want my truck. There's alot of shit you want to check out. Definitely nab some manuals on your project, and only spend money on the essentials. My project truck is also my daily driver. That's just how my situation is right now, so my wife can drive around the other "safer" truck. Just the other day someone at the gas station told me I "had a nice rat rod." Sometimes you just need to swallow your pride. I cried that night. Anyways, if you're ballin' on a budget, look on craigslist for an old school ford inline six. I run the stock 223 on my '58. These motors don't really stop running. I have a freshly machined 302 block sitting on my workstand that I haven't even begun saving money for, so that 223 actually comes in handy for the time being. I see them on craigslist over here for literally 100-200 bucks, even with a tranny on it. Hell, I've seen a few HAMBers on here giving them away to whoever will pay shipping. Look into it. Having something that can even half-ass drive will help you fix problems (steering, braking, etc) that would be alot easier to address without blowing a budget on a motor first. Disregard everything I just said if you find a cheap donor car with a SBC in it. Buy that shit. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Here's what I would do if I was in your shoes. Early Ford parts will by far be your cheapest option if you wait for the right deals. You basically have two options. 1) I'd look for a complete A chassis from someone that is parting one out for the body for a street rod. I've literally bought these for 400-1000 dollars, bolted a body down, and had it running and driving in a couple easy days. You won't win any races, but even with the body just like you have you'll be having fun. Option 2 is to piece something together. If I went that route. I'd get a model A front end. Maybe add a 36 axle to get it a little lower. Juice brakes front and rear. Add banger engine and trans to stock rearend. Bolt the body on. Boom. Instant classic hot rod. If I had to have a flathead I would hold out till I found a known cheap runner. If you hunt you will find them, get out and meet the right old timer and he may give you a good engine. I've been given crazy cool stuff, just because the guy new it was going to a good home. You'd be surprised what some guys will do for a young man that shows he's worth it. Basically I would build myself a sweet little 40's banger roadster, just like they used to build, enjoy it, and upgrade down the line. That will get you down the road and having fun vs. Collecting parts for the next five years.....most of the well known cars started out as something more "stock" anyways.... Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
You aren't stirring the pot, I'm just listing possible options for the kid. Agreed a model a rear would be the easiest without any mods but do you know any 16 years olds that don't slam on the go pedal every once in a while?. I live down the block from a high school and the main road to get to the thoroughfare is right outside my house. I should record it sometime and post it, but at 2:30 every weekday at the intersection, there's a burnout contest, all highschoolers. It's gotten so bad that cops are perched down the block. A stock model a rear will not hold up to that abuse. Teens are especially hard on cars. My wife's highschool girlfriend went through 8 cars in highschool.
Not to mention he'll need a way to convert it to open drive if he goes with a much younger engine and trans. Last time I checked, Model A open drive conversion kits cost about 10% MORE than the ones for the V8 rears. I know one can be made from a torque tube, but that's a bit of machine and fabrication work that's likely out of his reach at this point. This is a great suggestion. I actually do this but I use a spreadsheet. I maintain the master in Excel and back it up into Google Docs. I have a list of every single part I have, what I paid for it, where it came from, and where it goes (if that's nowhere, it's on another page). I have a page of what I've got going into the build and another page listing what i still need. Also, as an addendum to the list I suggested, if you can get a good vintage jigsaw, you can do a lot of cutting with that; I just got a mint 60's craftsman for $15 at a yard sale that will out-work any plastic bodied Chinese crap you'd get for $50 now. A set of bastard files is a must too; you want to de-burr metal when you cut it and be able to fine tune its shaping. Oh, and your car will need shocks too. It's funny how much a free car can cost, isn't it?
Just as an aside, I'd be interested to know which options Ford Mike considers "rediculous"? But in any case, my concern is that our young friend nelsoncoupe builds a hot rod that is safe for him to drive on a daily basis in and around Pleasanton, California, where he lives. We don't live in the '40s and '50s any more. The world has changed, and with it the demands on our means of travel including the ability to get the heck out of the way of cell phone-addicted soccer mom's in mini-vans. While nelsoncoupe may be perfectly happy going 50 miles per hour on the streets and freeways in his city, there are others who simply aren't paying attention to the slow-moving-but-hell-for-nostalgic banger roadster he is driving... There are bigger considerations here than just "cheap" and "traditional", and we H.A.M.B.ers as nelsoncoupe's self-appointed advisors should be aware of this. He is, after all, only 17 years old and has only as much wisdom and good judgement as he has accumulated in these short years. Let's help keep him around by giving him good, solid, appropriate advice, shall we? If we advise him to build a car that won't keep up with traffic or stop in a reasonable distance we aren't doing him any favors, are we. My $.02.
Well seeing as I was 16 four years ago I can say when you put most of time, money, and effort into something like this you tend to take it a little easier. Atleast I did with my pickup. Besides that if he has a 4 cylinder or flathead in there hes going to have a fairly hard time doing a burnout! Ha I think some of the stuff like an open drive rear with ladder bars and honestly a sbc with an automatic are ridiculous for this build. The amount of fabrication it would take to strengthen a model A frame to handle that engine is not feasible. Also locating an opendrive rear to get the correct pinion angle on the rear and trans would not be something I would want to do as a first fabrication project. Then you either need to make a drive shaft (also not a good thing to learn how to weld on) or have one made. Compared to old ford parts which all bolt together, require little to no welding/fabrication. Now I fully disagree with the statement this car would be a slug with a max speed of 50mph, a model A roadster will simply never be a match for a soccer moms minivan regardless of drive line setup. If the car is geared right it will keep up with the speed of traffic on the road with an old ford drive line. It will also have no trouble stopping with 39 and up juice brakes. I really don't know where the idea that it won't go or stop came from... It could be daily driver material but may not be. Either way I don't want to bog this thread down with anymore back and forth, this is a thread to help a young guy build a cool car.
From personal experience, A stock model A will do fine in traffic on arterial streets. Freeways are a little rough. Even the stock brakes will work great if they are in perfect order (just get juice, easier to maintain and less fade) though I recommend juice brakes. You guys realize that "safe" and "hot rod" are an oxymoron? No matter what he does to that thing it's not going to be any safer than a 1998 Honda Accord or similar. If these old model A's are so unsafe for today's roads, why are you encouraging him to add more power? You guys catching my drift? You're harping safety on one hand but encouraging adding more power on the other. All the egines, suggested have more than double that of a stock banger....pretty hard to get yourself in trouble with only 40hp. This is all coming from someone who daily drove a stock model A over 4000 miles last year. ( I don't live far from work.) Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
You make some very valid points, Ford Mike, and I'm pleased to see that you have some experience putting together an AV8 project. Very commendable. I wouldn't worry about "bogging this thread down with anymore back and forth..." because I'm sure that nelsoncoupe is thirsty for input of all kinds from all sources. After all, that's what he asked for in his early posts. I would suggest that you go back over the thread and review who said what. I think this will help clear up some of the points you brought up regarding my previous post, and perhaps put some of the other posts into better perspective as well. One of the points you made that I think is better than my own suggestion is the use of an early Ford gearbox and closed driveline. I think that this might be a better way for nelsoncoupe to go instead of a Powerglide with open drive, primarily because it would be more in keeping with his current skillset. Adapting a mild 283 to an early Ford transmission is easily accomplished by a beginner. The result would be adequate power in a power band higher than a flathead V8/banger is comfortable with, giving him higher freeway speed capability with all original early Ford gears. Keep in mind that nelsoncoupe wants his roadster as a daily driver, not as a weekend toy. It looks from your album that your own AV8 project is coming along very nicely. Keep up the great work...and you have my respect for stepping up and supporting your own beliefs here on the H.A.M.B. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you in the future.
I suggest go back to reading what he actually is saying in his first post, it'll give you a little clue as to what he wishes to accomplish..read between the lines, "Riley automotive frame","slammed to the ground", "doesn't want 10 mpg with a flathead". All of these things don't add up to a stock model a chassis. He's going to do whatever he wants to in the end regardless of what people tell him because that's what he wants. I'm not gonna get into a bickering contest about it anymore, that's stupid, I got better things to do.
What do you guys look for in engines? I'm in California so rust is everywhere, what happens if rust is inside the block? I looked at a flathead engine the other day and the front part where the water is was just brown with rust, and the whole engine looked like a barnacle. Is that stuff just cosmetic and once it gets off everything should be fine?
Did it turn? Is the block pitted? Are the cylinders pitted? Brown with rust doesn't deter me but a barnacle would give me pause. But if the mounts were all intact and the price was close enough to scrap value, it would at least be a good mockup block (but you don't need to sink money into a mockup block). More experienced builders will probably chime ion on this with better advice though. Did you take any pictures of this block?
I don't care what the outside looks like ad long as it turns... Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Here's my advice: 1.) Craigslist is your friend. Since you're on a tight budget, you're not going to be able to get all the doo-dads you're dreaming of. Instead, look for throwaway parts. No one wants a 305 or 307 Chevy. You can buy these motors for a song and still dress them up to look old school. You can bolt any number of modestly priced transmissions to them 2.) Skip the Flathead. I make A LOT more money than I did when I was 16 (34 now), and still, building the Flathead in my avatar was ridiculously expensive to the point where I questioned my own sanity. If you're lucky, you can find an old STOCK flathead in running condition sometimes for a reasonable sum, which brings me to my next point 3.) Network! Get out to car shows, talk to folks with similar cars, tell them what you're doing. I had so many old timers help me through the years by giving me parts collecting dust in their attic, or priceless advice/help. 4.) Don't rush it. You're going to be in a hurry to get it on the road. My first car was a 68 Cougar XR7 which was an absolute toilet. I ignored advice about the steering/suspension/brakes and damn near got myself killed, all because I just wanted to drive it. Buy a beater car for your daily, put your extra money into the roadster, set goals, as others have said. Good luck.
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