Technical Laying up a fiberglass body? Expert advise please

So i'm considering laying up my own roadster body from a mold. there are plenty of reasons i'm considering it but they don't require any discussion.

So the question is what would be the best method/materials to use to get it done?

what i mean is... what kind of cloth or mat or combination of both for maximum strength while keeping cost from spiraling out of control?

how may layers?

is there a specific type of resin to go to or stay away from, etc...

i'm looking to arm myself with a little info so i can do some more research before i go talk to the composites supply house. i'd like to have a good idea what they are talking about when i do.
thanks in advance.

 

Take the molds to a shop that does fibreglass work. They have all the proper tools, etc and will get the job done right. Gel coat, chopper guns, proper resins, all that. At the same time you can put in the reinforcing needed around all the openings.

 

doing just one wont be cost effective in the slightest!

There are LOTS of specialized rollers for laying out the matt and getting bubbles out depending on surface area and shape.

When i worked for zipper most of our bodies got 3 layers, and in some areas we put extras in, and or other types of matt aside fom just plain "glass"

If you do it just be very adamant about working out all the air bubbles. People lots of times see a gelcoat body and think its a great layup, but don't look at the inside of the body that's full of air bubbles and in essence not a very good part at all.

Also, bonding your pieces outside of the mold takes some special materials too.

As much fun as it is to do it yourself, it woulnt be something I'd do for less than 10 bodies. The bonus... your pants you wear to do the layout will never wear out, they'll just crack and break.

 

gearhead graphics...
do you recall what weight materials the bodies were laid up with?

 

Call you local Composites One Warehouse and get their professional advice,,Mat is usually 1 1/2 oz by different widths available,,I always bought the 50" width..and its cheaper by the roll.you will need a can of mold wax...Gel coat..resin..and MEK..and assortment of rollers helps a lot..If you really want to go big time a gel coat spray gun is nice too. you should have at least four layers which adds up to a total of 6 oz ..go heavier where you need it

 

This is what I was going to suggest. I am in the marine industry and fiberglass supplies have gotten very expensive and you will need so many things you will never use again in your lifetime. Find a small boat builder and see if they will lay it up for you. In the end, I bet it is cheaper, and it certainly will be easier !

Don

 

Ok, are you doing an Ed Roth style build using a plaster, chicken wire form or some thing more sophisticated? Multi-piece or one-piece mould?
"I gots to know!"

 

If he doesnt have a multi piece mold,,,LOTS OF LUCK on getting it out,,Hahaha

 

***smart ass comment warning***
thanks for the advise i didn't ask for guys.

i KNOW it would be easier to have someone else do it, probably cheaper too. actually it would be even EASIER To buy one already made from a known manufacturer. BUT it wouldn't accomplish my goal. My OP clearly states that i have my reasons for wanting to do it this way. so thanks for looking out for me. i appreciate it. i really do, but lets please stick to the topic at hand.

pasadenahotrod...
both.

 

I had a good friend that made T bucket body's and I helped build 5 29 roadster body's,,in fact he used my perfect roadster body for the first plug mold.

Make sure you use a good mold release wax and do it several times to make sure it is absolutely slick.

When Paul started building T body's he was using several layers of matt but eventually bought a chopper gun,,much easier but very messy. HRP

 

I've done a bit of glass on my boat, and I don't think small projects are hard at all. But I'd want some serious assistance before I tried to lay up a car body. Just the handling of big wet sheets of cloth is difficult. (I hate the "chopper" method. What an ugly mess.)

As for the whys and wherefores of what we do here, people forget that our motivations are NOT all the same. some guys are in a hurry. They want to "make" a particular car show, or they're doing someone else's car and trying to make money.

I'm not in a hurry, and getting exercise is a big part of my motivation, so labor-saving methods aren't really appropriate to my situation.

As I told my wife, "If it takes me 5 years, all it means is that I don't have to buy a new hobby car for 5 years."

 

Ok, I'll give you the Readers Digest condensed version of Fiberglassing 101:

1) Go to the library and pick up a book on fiberglass boat construction and repair. I have one and even though I have done a lot of glassing on boats and cars, I still learned a lot.

2) There are two kinds of resin, polyester and epoxy. Epoxy is more expensive and better in a lot of respects, but you don't need it for what you are doing. Most boats are laid up with polyester, and epoxy is generally better if you are going back in to do repairs. Buy polyester

3) You are going to need WAY more supplies than you ever thought you would. Buy your supplies at a fiberglass supply house or an old time marine supplier. They are set up to sell you the supplies in bulk, vs the prepackaged stuff you get at Marine Discount stores.

Buy yourself a fiberglass roller to roll out the bubbles, lots of 1 or 1.5 inch throwaway brushes (buy a box of 50 at least), buy gallons of acetone for cleanup and dewaxing, and buy your cloth and mat by the yard.. Buy lots of vinyl throw away glove too, lots of them, and a full paper suit.

4) There are basically two kinds of fiberglass material ( there are a lot more than two, but two you will be working with) One is MAT and the other is CLOTH. You will need both. Generally, you lay up mat first, next to the gel coat, and then you put cloth down next and then a final layer of mat.

5) There are two kinds of polyester resin........laminating and finish resin. Finish resin has wax in it so it will cure, laminating resin does not and will stay sticky. The idea is to use laminating for all the layers EXCEPT the final layer. Then when you put on that last layer with the wax in it all the layers below will kick and harden.

6) Get FRESH supplies of resin and especially hardener (catalyst) Hardener has a short shelf life and you will end up with a sticky mess that won't cure if it is old.

There is a lot more to fiberglassing, like how to tab, how to put down the gelcoat, what weights of cloth you will need, etc, but it would take me a year to type it all and my little fingers are tired enough as it is.

Get the book, it will help a lot.

Don

 

I second eaglebeak's suggestion. In my small town of 10,000 population there are or were, 2 fibreglass manufacturers. One made duct work and shower stalls, the other made boats. Either would do "custom" work like make a body from your mold. Friend of mine made fibreglass box sides for S10 and S15 pickups, he made the mold then had them mold the parts.

 

I am in the marine industry as well, and everything said Don is true.

Some additional thoughts. You don't say what exactly you are building, but considering the I will assume an early Ford body . . .

- There is much more out there than basic mat and cloth. A lot of bi-axial and stitched layer material is well suited to some of the tight, high stress areas of a body. Has to do with strand orientation and the like - too much to do here, but ask your supplier for advice based on your mold.

- You are going to want some type of print block, especially if the car will eventually be a dark color. It is a layer between the skin coat, and the bulk laminate. Coremat comes to mind - ask your vendor. Don't use SprayCore as a first timer.

- You are going to need to decide on a core material for some of the panels. Quarters etc. You can do plywood cheap, but it comes with a lot of hassles, and is heavy. Balsa core is sufficient. There are a million foams and honeycombs if you want to spend, but not worth it for this application.

- Before you begin layup you need to template any necessary bulkheads and stiffeners needed to go in while the part is in the mold. Be they wood bulkheads or steel / whaleboard / etc. inserts, they need to be done when the part is in the mold. Pull the part without proper support and it will never be square again.

- Remember backing inserts for door hinge, trunk hinge, column mounts, pedal mounts etc. - Much easier to do during lamination. You don't want these thing mounted without something to bite into. Steel / alum. / Whale board / Koosa, etc.

- Resist the rookie temptation to keep adding resin. Resin has no strength, and is brittle. The strength is in the laminate. You want FULL saturation, but no excess.

- Air is your enemy. Take the time to roll thoroughly, especially in tight radius's, and tight recesses. Air voids WILL come back to haunt you. (and the bastards wait until the paint is on every damn time!)

Having said all this (in no order just stream of thought) I would still recommend that you take the mold to a local boat builder and have them do it for you. Tell them you want to learn, and would be happy to play free gopher while they do your parts.

Either way, good luck. We'll answer questions as you have them.

 

LOL LOL... FRUSTRATING ,ISN,T IT....if they have to ask "WHY"...THEY WON'T UNDERSTAND.......LOL....wish I had more info for you ,to help you out. I applaud your tenacity to attempt a big project. Good luck, n send a shot if you get it accomplished.

 

Have you visited a Tap plastics?

Here is a couple books they sell.

http://www.tapplastics.com/product/...ass_fiber_auto_body_construction_simplified/6

http://www.tapplastics.com/product/fiberglass/books_dvds/fiberglass_composite_materials/292

chuck

 

Fiberglass on the cheap..

I just built two front fenders, hood and front headlite/grille for my 59 Studebaker.. Not available from any glass parts place.

First I bought all the resin and gel coat from a florida marine supply on Ebay. Worked out to be about $35.00 per gallon. Another Ebay seller does roll ends of 1.50 and 2 oz matt for cheap and I bought the quad axial cloth for strength on large areas..

Brushes from Harbor freight and I've only used up about 6 or 7 as I keep them cleaned in acetone. Stacks of old McDonalds large drink containers. 2x2 lumber for mold bracing. Old plastic gallon milk jugs. Small paint detail rollers for rolling air bubbles. Let one harden with resin on it and it rolls out air bubbles great

Spray the gel coat from a $20.00 Harbor Freight popcorn ceiling gun.

Molds were made from original parts The Stude fenders were terribly bad at the mounting edges so a tape and bondo session was done to get them up to mold quality. Hood scoop was taped to the original hood.

I happened on a swap meet where a seller was selling cases of 6 quarts of old resin for $20.00. So I bought a few cases. He also had some water stained 6 oz. cloth which buoght up cheap.

I was originally going to make the molds from other material, but the old thick resin and water/rust stained material worked perfect..
Laid up the molds when the temps were arounf 55-60 degrees early morning or late evenings. This gives plenty of time for working the cat/resin. Then turn on the heat or move the molds outside.

Waxed up the fender with Johnsons paste wax and some Pam cooking spray.

Some of the parts required two part molds. I laid up the molds in one piece and then sectioned them with a thin cut off wheel where required.

Corrected any flaws in the molds with bondo and fine paper.

Laid the right fender first. again waxed and Pam ed mold. Aluminum tape over the seam/joint on removable part of the fender. 1 layer 1.5 matt one layer of 2 oz. matt then a layer of quadaxial cloth thru the center.

Laid it up in the evening. Popped it out two days later. An aluminum yard stick was required to pop the longer part of the panel.Perfect except for two air bubbles over headlight area. Simple repair after washing with grease/wax
remover. Epoxy primed.

Same with hood..and fascia panel..

Then I read about using fleece, regular material for a mold. So on the last fender I used fleece for the molding material. It worked but was not as stable/strong and ripped when removing the finished fender..

So I have a complete glass front end for my Stude gasser.. Next is the doors and maybe a trunk lid.. Pics are on my page over at Hotrodders.com

 

You'll know if you rolled everything tight into the beads and coners by taking a 3/8" rod and rolling it along all the beadwork and around corners. You'll have fall through if the glass wasn't rolled carefully and tightly into the gelcoated mould. Fall through is breaking the gelcoat and exposing the air space/void.
Best of luck. I have a race car nose mould I need to make some finished parts from but haven't found a shop to do it yet.

 

I have done glass work many times over the years. A few suggestions: Mat has no strength, try to avoid using it. Use small pieces of cloth, large pieces will send you to the nuthouse. Lay the pieces in a cross-hatch pattern to give it strength. If you are doing fenders, sandwich in a softer material like corrugated cardboard or foam. It prevents "Rock Stars" in the paint caused by road debris. Never mix more resin than you will use in a session, you can tell when it's going to kick. Good luck.

 

I would suggest going to the library and checking out a I think it's spelled "Cook" book could possibly be with a k. You will find layup schedules and proper cloth, matt and thicknesses. It has all the hand layups that you would need and a list of tools.

 

That first book, auto body construction, is OLD.... I bought my copy in the mid 1960s (1964 copyright, 1965 title page date) and the last complete rewriting of that edition was in 1955.

Seems to have good basic info, though. Interesting comments on the Corvette.

 

http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm
An option for those who don't want to build a mold.

 

Boatmark and Don covered a lot of really critical points.

I'll add to the notion that there are TONS of specialized cloth and mat combinations for specific purposes. However, you'd be surprised what you can do with three-ounce chopped-strand mat and 6-ounce plain-weave E- or S-Glass cloth. A lot of hand-laid bodies got made with those two materials almost exclusively.

I buy mat in three ounce because it's a good weight for most applications and it splits into two 1.5-ounce layers to fit in a really tight radius. Plus two layers of three-ounce makes a fantastic print blocker (prevents the fabric from showing up in the surface--what Don described). Some prefer Core Mat but I find it bulky and not as strong as chop-strand mat.

Mat is not weak in the least. True, it's not quite as strong as cloth; however, it's not weak either. I wouldn't do an entire layup with mat but it would still come out exponentially stronger than a chop-gun part.

There are several types of polyester but laminating and finish resin are the same thing. Finishing resin differs by having paraffin wax suspended in it. Polyester is oxygen inhibited meaning the outermost surface won't entirely cure if exposed to air. That's not a problem, though; at worst it just stays sort of tacky and won't influence the strength in the least. Unless you're a glutton for punishment avoid finishing resin. Traces of the paraffin can wreak havoc with future work by preventing binding.



The two main types of polyester are orthophthalic (usually called ortho) and isopthalic (usually called iso). Ortho is the garden-variety stuff. It's okay but iso is considerably stronger and usually barely costs any more. Sometimes people in the industry refer to iso as tooling resin. I use iso exclusively. I think it's worth the slight premium. And for some reason the stuff I lay up in iso doesn't develop that tacky backside. And the stink dissipates a lot faster than it does with ortho.



Old poly resin gets gel-like glops in it. Next time you put a run in a pair of pantyhose save 'em because you can filter out the glops by pouring through a foot.

As stated, never use old catalyst (MEKP). It loses its gumption.



Epoxy is stronger than polyester and doesn't stink when cured but it's not without shortcomings. It's more expensive (although prices came way down recently). Unless things changed recently you can't repair epoxy with polyester (you can repair poly with epoxy though). For our uses I don't think the strength advantage is that great. The strength is in the glass fibers; the resin is just a binder and is only fractionally as strong as glass. Finally, epoxy is SUPER THICK. It makes it harder to wet out laminations and really difficult to work out bubbles.



I would look into a hybrid resin like vinylester. Though not as strong as epoxy it's stronger than poly. It usually doesn't cost very much more than polyester. I think it can be repaired with either poly or epoxy. But best of all it's really thin so it wets out and expels bubbles a lot better.

I'll repeat it: resist the temptation to add more resin. Boatmark called air the enemy but my guru JB Donaldson calls resin the enemy. Resin is super weak--300 to 500psi tensile for poly and vinylester whereas e-glass is around 200,000 psi tensile and s-glass is around three times stronger (but a lot more spendy--use E-glass unless you find a rippin' deal on S). You want to use just enough resin to wet out. No more.

If you lay dry cloth or mat on a layup you can usually wet out the new layer by rolling the excess resin from the existing lamination. Then and only then should you brush on more resin. And brush it and not pour it. Pouring resin saturates the lamination and adds weight but diminishes strength.

Oh yeah, unless you're looking to just burn money don’t buy from TAP Plastics or West Marine. Those places are convenient luxuries and you'll usually pay for the privilege of using them. Find a commercial supplier.

And to repeat, never mix more resin than you will use in a session. Catalyst cures by heat and a larger volume of catalyzed resin will generate more heat and cure faster. It's weird that way.


And use the bare minimum of catalyst. Excess catalyst will cause the resin to kick faster which may be convenient; however, it will also cause microscopic cracks to develop in the resin. That weakens parts.

You'll have to vary the catalyst amount to suit the temperature: more catalyst for colder days and less catalyst for hotter ones. I heat my garage if it's colder than 60 degrees. If it's really cold you can build cardboard boxes around parts and blow heated air into the space but don't get too carried away or you'll cause those tiny cracks to develop.

Don't get just one book; get several and use the techniques that at least two or three sources recommend. There's so much bad information about fiberglass.

Best of luck. Laminating is really rewarding and you can do so much for such little effort and so few tools. I want to see you make it work.

 

thanks for all the info so far guys.
still debating whether or not to get involved, but i'm always up for a new learning experience.
gonna go hit the library and the supply shop and get some more info.

 

One more suggestion if you don't mind. Don't over match yourself. Start with something small and work your way up to building a whole car. Like, make a hood scoop or something like that first.

 

look on youtube - there are a lot of gelcoat and fiberglass layup videos from boats to 53 corvettes by gm. You will learn a lot. I want to say that laying up a 32 body in a mold would require a few people. different weather conditions require different amounts of hardener, etc. Practice by laying up one small section of the body in the mold until you get used to the amount of hardener and layers to use and until you like how it comes out, then go for it!

try these links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsvgaWHPMF4&list=PLE1F6FCC30FB07166

http://www.youtube.com/user/tapplastics

 

The mold itself is a major undertaking. You are probably talking about a female mold, where the gel coat is sprayed first inside the mold and then the glass is rolled into the gel coat. Once cured you pop the body out of the mold.

Even experienced fiberglassers screw this step up because the gel coat can stick to the mold in spots and not want to come out or come out damaged. Lots of paste wax or mold release agent is critical.

The mold also has to be glass smooth and polished because the slightest imperfection will end up in the gel coat of the body. There also has to be significant reinforcement of the mold (usually via a steel framework) to keep things from moving around while laying up the glass.

Finally, there are one piece molds and molds that come apart to make getting the body out easier. Mold making is sometimes the hardest part of building a body and once one is built the actual fiberglassing is the easy part.

Don

 

Go for it !! I had to do lots of 'glas work on my roadster shell and was skeptical about it too.
I was fortunate enough to find a 'glas mfg shop that advised me from the start..They filled me in on the basics, sold me the material from their bulk supply, and were kind enough to trouble shoot the few problems I had..
In the end , I did learn about a new process, developed a new skill, and really enjoy the fact that I did it myself..especially when someone asks who did the work..

coupla tips : Slow down.. have everything( I repeat Everything!!) you're going to need close at hand when you start to lay-up.. experiment with a few small resin batches to get a feel for how long you have before it kicks.. and believe me " more is not better " on using catalyst !!!

Good luck on the project,
Stan

 

Started on the Studebaker door mold today. This will be done in two pieces. The inner panel is being done "moldless". Simply cast over the original inner door frame and then covered with polyester filler and finished on the exposed areas, x-tra plywood/roving reinforcement on the inside around the hinges and handles. The finished window frame area will be foamed for xtra strength.
This procedure makes the finished :inner panel about 3/32" thicker all around. This extra thickness still clears the door sills and total door thickness will be adjusted when the inner and outer panels are bonded together. Temp was cool today so the die was cast.. Taped over all the mount holes, waxed an Pamd the surfaces. Hardest part is the inner curves of the window openings. Lots of spring clamps, tape and toilet paper roll tubes to keep the curves/edges down till it kicks.

Will remove from the door Tuesday and wask it with grease/wax remover. Then bond in the plywood/nutserts etc, Then seal with anothey layer of glass/resin .

 

Rough trimmed the Studebaker inner door. Fits great so far. Next is internal bracing and oak pieces for hinges, locks, widow frame and fuzzies.

2 oz. matt around window frame with roving on the inside. Main body is 27 oz. bi-axial cloth.. 3M resin.