Hot Rods Fuller Brizio Volks T topic continued

Although some may have used the lower tube from the VW front end most used just the laminated torsion bar components and usually shortened them. The Rod and Custom Volksrod series had the details as they went to the Dragmaster shop and copied the parts that Jim and Dode were using on their second generation Dragmaster front ends. I have five sets of the arms, plates and tabs needed to replicate those front ends if anyone is interested in them.

Roo

 

Your only half right.....the front half is fake, the rear portion is not, the headers dump into the collectors, and I added a cross over to join both banks.

 

Don, awesome finding you here, I've always loved that T of yours, I check out that '73 Rod Action mag often.

 

Here is a nice clean pic.


Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

I'm almost afraid to ask this.
I don't want to jeopardize this thread.... I have two questions. Even though I have a friend that can weld wood to plastic, could the frame be made of mild steel instead of chromoly?
Secondly, do you guys think a Fiat body would have the room in back for everything?
I realize the Fiat would be much heavier, but still not as heavy as a stock body.

 

Mild steel can be used for the frame without problems ,one just has to engineer it over the propertys of moly.

Using the standard rear engine design the engine would stick out the back and a mid engine would leave no room for the driver.

 

Right! I keep forgetting the engine is behind the rear wheels.

 

Mike, it's been done a lot with the X19, 600's, 850's...you name it.

 

I am pretty sure that Mike was wanting to use a Topolino body, not the late model stuff.

Roo

 

Mild steel is better than chrome moly. Racers tried moly and went back to mild steel years ago.

If there is a stock car race chassis shop in your area they can bend tubes, and furnish the correct steel and even build your chassis.

Depends what kind of Fiat. If you mean a fibreglass Topolino probably not unless you set it back on the frame or modify it slightly.

If you want to go nuts how about a big V twin motorcycle engine on a VW transaxle? That would be a lot shorter.

 

Actually by the time you add the adaptor to put a H-D engine on a VW transaxle the overall length is about the same as the VW package, just narrower.

Roo

 

Hey, Mike;

You *could* just let the vee-wee mill hang out where it does, cutting the body to allow access & clearance, thereby OWNING the "it's a f...... vw!!!!!.." idea. . I saw a pic of a vwt turtledeck done this way, & it used a wing - looked *real good* from the back (I didn't like the front treatment at all). If you'd use the spare-tire cover that you never see on a Topo, it'd be 1) different, 2) cover up some more of the vw, 3) & probably look nice(r). Which is why most vwt use a pu bed.

I've been thinking lately (your cue: "uh-oh". ), that there is a way (or 3) to move the wheels back 4"->x" on the vw (while keeping the engine in the same location, or, being able to move the engine/trans forward 'till the point of transaxle-nose intrusion into the cockpit shows up - while keeping the rear wheels where you want them) to improve the wheelbase, looks, proportions, & handling. Not to mention "hiding" the oh-so-hated-vw-mill ... Could net you a different gear ratio if needed, change rotation of the (maybe) incorrect transmission rotation, can be gear-drive, belt or chain, drive. Rather a bit out there, but should be practical. Need to research a bit more, unless we've got a couple of engineers willing to discuss ideas, +/- . Issue(s) may be the horsepower drain, + possible jacking during acceleration/de-acceleration effects(?) .

& of *any* engine in the world, including a rotary or a chainsaw, for sound(s) & lack-of-smoothness, the H.D. mill would be my *last* choice. I'd go electric 1st, & I'd give serious thought to a damn-big-rubberband before a H.D. Just hate the G.D. things... . But, it's just me..., & to each there own.

Marcus...

 

OK guys,
Once again I've taken us on a tangent we shouldn't travel. I like the ideas, but we are straying from the original thread. My bad.

 

What year did some of the first V-Rods come on the scene?
I always liked rods, but V-rods seemed like an easy,cheap way for me to get into one.
I picked up a '64 sunroof donor bug in '73 but the body was too nice and couldn't cut it up.

I later got a semi-"real" rod in '85 that started me on the rod trail.

 

1st one on a national-type magazine cover I've ever seen, was '64. A rpu-style, but proportions were "rough". Was in a foreign-car-small-pages-format. No real info on car, beyond ~ 1 paragraph. . Didn't want to spend the coin, but iffen I ever see it again, I might. Just for "historical proof". .

Most of the rest of the magazine coverage started in early '67, so's I'd guess that they were built starting maybe 1-2 years earlier. How many ran unfinished? Kent Fullers' did(as a "shop truck"), which is where Tex Smith showed Tom Medley the "neat new thing", resulting in the mid-'67 R&C VolksRod project car coverage.

As far as tangents go, back then, afaik, Kent, Tom, Andy, & Dode hid the engine, so's to surprise other rodders. (The little buggers were quick off the line). The 23T rpu, was the 1st style, & then the 27 turtledeck was accepted, but I've got VRod features on 23 turtledeck also. I'd guess that a bantam roadster & a fiat topo would've been accepted as a decent alternative. Last two weren't seen on the street much back then, but Tex pointed out in early articles, that the Vrod moved the rear wheels forward just like the then-popular drag-altered-style, being seen on the street. & all 5 body styles were used in the altered class.

Biggest problem (for me, anyways) was lack of power to roll at hiway speeds. Top-end was usually rather, uhm, short. A circa '62-'64 stock 1200 isn't exactly safe on todays' hiways, hopped-up = short, but expensive, life, too. However, my enthusiasm got re-ignited seriously lately, when I was exploring on OT acvw sites, & found out that everything I wanted to do/use in the early 70s, was now available, & rather cheaply - too, + it works like gangbusters. Hard to turn that down. . Those particular mods might be mostly all non-hamb-friendly, but that just makes it a challenge to hide those bits. .

Marcus...

 

Okay, I'm not trying to take this o/t again, but I need to maybe spell out some combos for you guys with this stuff. For some reason, you guys seem to think of VW and "poky" in the same breath... It really doesn't have to be that way. They also don't have to be time bombs waiting for the countdown to get performance.

The typical early sixties 1200 that nrgwizard was talking about above isn't what you would run today. Those engines were common in the sixties and seventies, give aways in the eighties and were good for 40hp in good shape. Now, the VW resto guys prize them and build them with all N.O.S. stuff as any resto early Ford guy would and the prices are "expensive". We wouldn't want one for a Volksrod anyway. Nor would we search out that era's 4.37 transaxle.

The late sixties saw a change in the VW right off the factory floor. They got a 1600 single port engine and a high gear trans going from a 4.37 to a 4.12. The 1600 put out about 60 H.P. stock, and a significant further change can be made just with an exhaust system that takes care of a far better sound. This combo alone made a VW bug a solid 75 mph freeway car, and in the early nineties, this was the combo we all put together for our girlfriends cars. I traveled many a mile between Phoenix and L.A. with this combo in a lowered stock bug as a typical commuter to shows, and it would be dynamite today in a Volksrod weighing 1/3 as much as a stock bug. The bonus would be taller hot rod type rear tires that would help immensely with top speed.

If you wanted to go further, that same transaxle with a very mild 1600 dual port with a counter weighted crank, lighter flywheel, lower end balance, 87mm pistons for 1641, mildly ported heads, a mild cam and pair of small Weber IDF carbs would net you a combo that would surprise the living hell out of you, and last longer than the stock combo above.

You could take that same combo above, go up to 90.5mm pistons (1776cc, a nice patriotic size!) and a slightly humpier cam and scare yourself silly light to light. Add a later super Beetle 3.88 transaxle with the earlier swing arms in place and top speed becomes a complete non issue. I have personally pushed this combo into the 115 MPH range in a stock bodied bug with terrifying regularity back in the bad old days. And remember, these are still VERY mild combos that will last forever built with care, and ever piece I just described short of the balance work is available at ANY VW type shop in the nation. (By the way, 115 in a stock bodied car is very much akin to handing a big league pitcher a whiffle ball...)

These are three VERY mild combos. Beyond that you can go full blown bozo until you are walking around without a dime in your pocket, but reliability becomes an issue the further you push this stuff. Ya gotta remember with a Volksrod we are talking about something that will end up weighing about a 1000lbs or so, so there is no weight to be pushed by these things to speak of.

 

I don't see how talking about the power plant FOR a Volksrod is going OT What we need to make sure of is that we don't start posting cut up bugs with Ford beam axles out front as a Volksrod. I remember a nicely chopped n channeled A pickup on a modified bug chassis with either VW or Corvair power a curbside view you could not tell what the full fender lowered truck used for power.

 

There was a Model T built I think in the late '60's? with an Olds Toronado drive train in the bed but I don't remember the name they had painted on the door.
Anyone remember?

 

Hey, Chip.

Thanks for that. I know I wouldn't run the old combos, but that is what we had back then, & most of the old VRods still around would still have it. Fortunately, those issues (engines/trannies/brakes) can now be swapped out rather inexpensively, if you're careful. Quickly, too.

Even in the early 70's, when I was playing around w/the 2cyl acvw concept (mileage motors - 'cause gas was like 50+ cents/gal! then. Remember?), I would only use the dual-port heads. & they were only a few years old, therefore expensive. Did have fun w/them, could still hit 55mph (miserable national speed-limit law at that time), & the 2cyl (800cc) dual-port factory efi flatmotor I did, still did ~ 75mph in a super beetle. Absolutely no passing anything but a gas station. Got to get real good at watching traffic & road conditions a long ways ahead.

"(By the way, 115 in a stock bodied car is very much akin to handing a big league pitcher a whiffle ball...)" This is as seriously funny as it is true. .


I've spent some time catching up on ~ 40 yrs of trouble, fixes, alternative parts/methodologies, & technology, that wasn't available then. I'll find & post some links (just gotta find them) to fairly low-budget hi-po acvw stuff that got me going again. & you're correct - stupid $$$ can be thrown at the acvw - but that's not for me, esp since I don't have it. . VRods have a lot more frontal area & CD than a bug. Maybe not a bus, but still... . & light weight is a virtue - until you meet a semi at 70+ mph . Amusingly, the same tech/etc that is/can be applied to Traditional mills, incl bangers, applies to the acvw - w/at least as good results. Life isn't really all that bad - other than I can't afford most of it... , so we look for alternatives that get/give better results than was possible in the 70's. &, so I'm excited there are ways around 40+ yr old problems.

Think I'll post links in a separate reply. If I somehow commit a faux-pas, posting links from other sites for info, hopefully only that reply will be deleted, not this whole thread. Don't know any other way to convey info. .

Marcus...

 

The late Jim Davis race car builder and 1969 NHRA Championship Driver - was not going to be out done by his rivals, which included the legendary Kent Fuller and Andy Brizio ( the primary constructers of T Model Volksrods during the late 1960s ) and decided he would build this extraordinary C Cab T - incorporating a Porsche 914 drivetrain for power - setting a new standard in "Volks Rod" construction.

The drivetrain which incorporates the original Porsche sub frame & suspension is cleverly concealed underneath the rear floor.

Jim also built frames for Choppers and according to his widow built some of the early frames for the "King" of Kustom Motorcycles - none other than the legendary Arlen Ness when he first set up shop building KUSTOM CYCLES.

The unique rod is equipped with Italian Borrani motorcycle wire wheels.

<!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->

 

As in still mid engine configuration? Would love to see that set-up, any pictures of that....

 

I don't remember who built it but, I think it was Street rodder that ran a series of build stories on a all sheet metal fabbed full fendered 3/4? sized model T C cab Panel truck with VW power. Just about everything in the buld but the power train was fabbed by the builder.

 

Back in the day Rod and Custom did a layout of different Volksrod concepts and one was a pretty cool looking Fiat Topolino if I remember correctly.

 

You are talking about this one, that ended up in the hands of TRM guy Les Jarvis in the mid seventies. As far as I know, (and I am kinda a walking encyclopedia of early Street Rodder issues) there was never a full article on this little beast. But it did end up in a couple of "how to" articles, and then finally in the Anaheim show coverage in '76 or '77.

Now, maybe if somebody did one of these like this the whole "traditional" gang would get off our backs!

 

Need Louvers...by 1977 it looked like this? If so full article

 

I think it was Tom Daniel that did the R&C renderings. One of the sketchs was a concept showing what a Meyer's Manx would look like if it was mated with a T-bucket with a truck bed. I took the sketch to Jim Kellison and he made a one off for me. He later made some production bodies of that concept. I found one of the production bodys and after I got it, it wasn't quite the same as the prototype, so I sold it.


Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Cool! I started with Hot VWs in '80, so I don't have that one. Any chance of a scan of the article?

 

I remember seeing pictures of this car when I was young. I always dug the look and the creative engineering that went into the build. I bet it was quick in the Gymkhana's.
chuck

 

Sure

 

Thanks Hellydid!