Technical FE 390 Wont crank anymore

Well took the distrubtor out and redid TDC. Seems everything is ok. Pin still in the distributo and the previous TDC was still on. I took it out anyway and redid the TDC and about to redo the firing order plugs since i turned the rotor to point right at number 1. When i turned on the crank manually everything turned fine so it seems there was no slop in the timing chain. I didnt have enough time to try and start it but im suspecting that wasnt the issue. Ill re check the fuel pump but the fact that Im getting fuel to come out the crab it should at least bump over.

Still not sure whats up

 

Sweet bastard...ok still nothing. Redid the timing, checked fuel and nothing. Everythign seems tight. I even hot wired from poisitive battery to the coil to run straight off it and still nothing. I got power (test light only though) on coil and then put it on negative, cranked it and the light flickered.

Is it possible for the dizzy to be done?

 

[QUOTE="Whitey Ford" 62 Uni;9640367]Sweet bastard...ok still nothing. Redid the timing, checked fuel and nothing. Everythign seems tight. I even hot wired from poisitive battery to the coil to run straight off it and still nothing. I got power (test light only though) on coil and then put it on negative, cranked it and the light flickered.

Is it possible for the dizzy to be done?[/QUOTE]

Not likely, but it is possible for the points, condenser, or coil to be toast.

Edit: Forgot about the MSD setup. Check the coil again...

 

yeah so i rechecked the coil again last light. I got 11.58 volts at the coil in the on posistion so i had a buddy start it while i held a spark plug to the block and the spark really sucks. Its orange and i have to hold it real close to the block to get anything. Like damn near touch the block really. ANd when i do touch it it seems to act different. Im sure im just grounding it out but im going to go with another coil and see where it goes from there.

 

For all the time you been working on car you could have learned how to set points.
That big engine is not a high rpm one, points are ok put the original dist back in or get a points dist new one.

 

Good advice and it never hurts to have a back up for the electronic one.

Bob

 

If you have spark and fuel it has to be timing or compression. My fresh FE engine would not start. Compression was way low. We squirted some oil in the plug holes and it started right up. This was on a brand new engine and probably not the cause on your used engine.

Swallow your pride and have a buddy come by and let him start from the BEGINNING. I pulled my hair out on a Pontiac 45 years ago I had a buddy come by and we both spotted it right away. I had the rotation wrong on the plug wires. You need a friend to check what you have done. Again not your problem but a friend can help.

 

Is the engine block grounded well ?

 

Well im not able to work on it every night so thats another reason tis takaing awhile. Ive got quite a few grounds on there but i did check them. I guess i need to break them loose then clean them up and try that. I didnt want to change out the dizzys right away if that wasnt the problem. Ive ad this engine rebuilt 4 years ago and never had a problem so why would i go changing a bunch of stuff now.

I havent done the comp[rssion test yet sicne i couldnt find one from a friend. didnt want to buy one but maybe ill have to.

Im going to change the coil anyway since i dont like that weak spark. I also noticed that the tip of the coil where the plug goes into is cracked. Maybe thats letting some of the 'hot' out.

 

I had a Mallory dual point distributor lose the tension between the Distributor shaft and the plate that holds the points.

Was running perfect for years then started to go off the boil, re adjusted timing a few times, then one afternoon after shutting the engine down, it was running fine, went to restart, cranked and cranked backfired and wouldn't start, pushed the car into the garage, tried again and blew 2 mufflers wide open, I was at my wits end for a day, checked to see if the gear had broken or sheared the pin, it was only by chance I found the points plate found its way loose.

This was in an FE 390 plus 60, but to be fair I think it was just that distributor, the distributor was made in the late 70's early 80's. Why this happened who knows.

Just another thing to look for.

Best of Luck

 

That could explain the backfire through the carb.

 

I has trouble similar to yours a few years back with an old truck/rebuilt engine. Does it have an ammeter instead of voltmeter in the dash? That could be your weak link. They go bad, and are tied into your primary that feeds your coil/MSD box. HEI type systems normally don't fire well (or not at all) when fed under 12 volts. Brad

 

the spark with a MSD should be bright blue and you should hear the crack it makes . either the spark unit is dieing or the coil is toast . make sure your getting battery voltage to the msd unit thats what the seperate heavy wires are for do not run them thru a switch and ground , they must be hooked directly to the battery ! as it will burn a switch out over time from the amp load and using the body ground creates lots of resistance it wants clean current , also check the voltage from the switch to the msd unit ( the thin red wire) to see if there is a voltage drop there too a bad igntion switch will cause a low voltage problem and msd s do get finecky when the voltage drops . below 9 volts and they do odd things ..
and on coils if you need a new one , a standard non resistor coil will work ( and no resistor is to be in the coil circuit as the box supplys the voltage ) , no need to buy a race coil , the blaster series is what you want for a street car , the race coils ( pro series) get hot and fail internally and are meant for short durations .

 

they have 2 as one is a redundant in case of failure as they are inspected and sealed by nascar ( they check for certain items like timing retards data recorders and other controls which are illegal) and if one fails they have it in the car , as you cannot get one from the pits to replace it .and they inspect both units after the race for the top positions .

I used to sell the blasters , 6 , 7 and the early 8 units when I worked at the speed shop , and only had a few returns and most of the problems were incorrect wiring by the installer ( wiring up the power leads thru a switch instead of direct to a battery like they need ) . or mounted without vibration control . only one in the several years I worked at that MSD wouldn't honor and it was tampered with .

 

Dont know if this was brought up or not but you may want to look at the reluctor in the dist and make sure that it is tight and not spinning on the shaft.

 

My money's on the MSD box.. They fail from time to time, and don't always lose all spark, just intensity.

Have you welded anything on the truck recently?

 

OK little update. So i changed the coil and nothing changed. One thing i did notice is that when i check spark from the coil to the distributor i get ONE spark when i initially try to crank it. It sparks once and then no more spraking. SHouldnt it continue to get a spark each time the rotor hit the magnetic module? ALso, i dont have the box i have the MSD 8595 where its just a coil and distributor with no ballister.

64 - no welding has been done.

Everything seems to be very tight within the distributor housing, the wores, haft, rotor. Hell its even still pretty clean for being 4 years old.

After rethinking everything i did rememebr that the last day i did drive it it did seem to get a little harder and harder to start so soemthing was giving out. Prior to this the truck would start on dime and idle great. I would prime it and it would start great. Better than any new car ive ever had. So some type of component gave up on me. Maybe the magnetic module went out.

 

My son has MSDs. (one on his SBC roadster, one on his '55 F100 SBF, one on his '66 Galaxie F-E.
Two boxes have failed on the roadster, one on the Galaxie. MSD warranted one box, the other he had to buy.
He concluded that one was his fault, a 'spike' occurred when changing over to a Mini starter; inadvertently fed MSD from an intermittent switch...

I am quite familiar with electronic ignition, having been introduced to Factory Bosch systems in the '60s.
MSD is highly praised in the aftermarket, but my F100, & roadster (& tub) all have points & condenser ignitions. Just hate those nasty 'electronic road surprises'...

Not having my shop (and that big Sun scope) any longer, I amazed a young man last month with an MSD problem...orange 1/32" spark prompted me to drop in a nice Mallory Y-L, and a jump wire with ballast resistor...Cranked it 1/2 turn, and "Vroom!"
The kid said, "How did you know???" I replied, "High mileage..."

 

Yeah i have the MSD ready to run type which has the internal module in it. Its a magnetic trigger. I would think if it would to go out it would just go, not slowly. To be honest i never really liked the look of this distributor in my truck since the rest of it looks original but up until now its been a great product....and to be honest it may not even be that you know.

 

Interesting, I am curious what you find out.

Are you at the point that it may be worth it to just swap to a points dist just to eliminate the MSD dist.?

 

When testing for spark remove the spark plug wire from dist. cap and hold 1/2" from medal surface. If you test at spark plug it only sparks at one time per turn.
The spark should jump 1/2" nice shape sounding spark.
If not good spark junk the dist and go back to points or buy new box.

 

A Rodder - YES! Id like to get an original looking set up anyway. But we will see. If its not bad then i wont. Just weird cause when i rebuilt this motor literally on the first turn of the key it started with ease. Literally just perfect. So its been 4 years so i cant complain so far other than the usual tune ups, I havent had one issue in all this time.

George - Yeah i thought so. I was testing the coil to distributor wire and I ONLY get a spark at immediate crank...then it just turns and turns and no more sparking.

 

Do you have anyone that you could borrow a dizzy from just to try it?with the old style points you can always jigger with them to get it to run,with the new electronic it is really hard to diagnose if you aren't an electrical engineer?Trouble with electricity is that you cant see it?.If it was working fine before,I would try a new dizzy or a MSD box if you can get one easy. Harvey

 

Im thinking of that. Just heading to NAPA and getting a dizzy with points and see how it goes. I dont know anyone here that has a FE motor though but i just may try that. I

 

[QUOTE="Whitey Ford" 62 Uni;9650696]Im thinking of that. Just heading to NAPA and getting a dizzy with points and see how it goes. I dont know anyone here that has a FE motor though but i just may try that. I[/QUOTE]

Whether it's an FE, SBC, flathead Ford or a lawn mower. It really doesn't make a whole lot of difference. If it has a spark at the right time and compression, it should try to start anyway. The brand of an internal combustion engine doesn't really make any real difference.

 

Yeah but i dont think im getting spark. At least not enough. Im only getting one little spark at thetime of cranking but then it doesnt spark.

 

Any luck on this yet? Harvey

 

No still nothing. Im getting the 12V at the coil. I still need to check during cranking but after reading MSD's help page thats the only way to check the "ready to run" distributor.
This is out of their webpage -
Another popular distributor is the Ready-to-Run line. These distributors are easily identified by the three pin connector that has a Red, Orange and Black wire. In some models, there will be a separate Green wire that is used for a tachometer signal wire. These distributors do not require and external ignition control as they have a built-in high output ignition module.

To check the Ready-to-Run Distributor, confirm that there are 12 volts on the Red wire when the key is On and while cranking. It is important to confirm 12-volts during cranking as many older vehicles may have resistor wiring or ballast resistors inline which could affect the voltage needed to fire the ignition.

You can also check for 12 volts on the coil negative – remember, this is only on the Ready-to-Run distributors! Also, confirm that the black wire is properly grounded to the engine block.

So im not sure how i can tell if the trigger went out. Im going to have a buddy help me out next week that has some more electrical knowledge than me help me out. I would like to just try and throw a dizzy with points in just to see. I just really dont think its the timing chain.

 

if you call MSd tech they can help you . thats there job and they are good at it . (915) 855-7123 ,

 

How much of the starting circuit is OEM?
In the 12 volt points era, points; coil and distributor still operated at less than 12 volts. Ford continued to use 6 volt style gauges protected by a reducer.

It's been a long time and I would have to see a OEM wiring diagram to see if the ignition HOT ran through this reducer or if the ignition HOT wire was a reducer wire. Also on 12 volt points, some systems would give full 12volts when cranking and then drop to reduced voltage when the starter was released. This was controlled by the starter switch.

So if the MSD was connected to the reduced OEM circuit the reduced voltage may have caused trouble. It may show 12 volts during cranking then drop to less when the starter is released. As said the MSD may not do well on reduced voltage and have short life.

On the other hand if the Ignition HOT was modified and ran straight 12volts for the MSD, returning to a OEM points distributor will require reducing the the HOT. A points distributor will run on 12 Volts, but not for long as it it will burn points.

So if you return to points you will have to either reduce the circuit like OEM or use an aftermarket voltage reducer.

Flatheads, YBlocks and FEs have a reputation of cranking almost instantly. If they do not, there usually is a problem. They can be somewhat sensitive to carburetor problems. If you are running the original tank, a piece of trash can easily mess up the carb and cause problems.

You may have to attend to the timing, fuel and ignition to get it back right. It's kind of like mountain climbers tied together. When one falls they all fall.