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354 Hemi street engine power

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Truckedup, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,661

    Truckedup
    Member

    Reality here,not a drag race engine or need impress the crowds.for a few thousand bucks a guy can build a SBC or Ford 350 ish cube engine with 375 HP and it'll idle at 750 RPM with decent in town manners , fuel mileage and run fine on 91 octane pump gas.
    I can get a rebuildable 354 Hemi for a reasonable price.It's a worn but running engine.I know it'll cost more to build than common engines,be more difficult to fit up to a standard trans set up and so on.
    In the long run,with a single 4 barrel and a moderate build, will it really outperform a Chevy or Ford?
     
  2. bangngears
    Joined: Aug 30, 2007
    Posts: 1,145

    bangngears
    Member
    from ofallon mo

    Cubic inches is cubic inches,whether its a hemi,sbc or whatever.It depends on how you build it.
     
  3. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    Yeah, I'm a bit biased so no real surprises there...:p But, inch for inch, against any other engine with the same mods, it will produce more power simply due to head design. The brand 'x' guys are now howling but the Hemi head design is simply more efficient. Ford used them, Arias made them for chebbies and Ponchos, and if they weren't so damned expensive to make I expect everyone would use them.

    Yes, due to the overall lack of parts demand, EarlyHemi parts cost more money, just like the Flatheads, early Olds, Caddy and everything else that has been out of production for 55 years....

    In comparison to other engines, the EarlyHemi will easily make 1hp/inch with moderate, almost basic, hot-rod mods, but the EarlyHemi will make its power at a lower rpm. Just because you can't/won't be spinning it past 6000 only means it will live longer. Can they spin faster? You betcha! I have seen tattle-tell tachs in the old days on T/F cars reading well past 9000 and the cars returning for the next round....

    It should not be hard to compare a 354 to a crate 360 making 375 HP for a similar $6K, but if you are only comparing dollars then, by all means, buy a 385 hp 355 sbc from Jegs for the $3500 they offer.

    •EarlyHemi engines run well on pump gas and 10:1 c/r. Premium forged pistons are available from several sources.
    •New cam cores are available sporadically; we regrind the stock shafts on a regular basis.
    •Roller lifters 'can' be fitted, but roller cams are custom billet pieces.
    •Electronic ignition is easy.
    •The oem 4-bbl intake manifold, while a bit heavy at 43 lbs, is quite efficient and easily bored out to match larger throttle bores like the Holley 1- 11/16".
    •Trans adapters are required for 'modern' manual or automatics. Prices vary by manufacturer/application.

    I'm pretty sure that others will also offer their opinions.

    .
     
    j-jock likes this.
  4. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,824

    4tford
    Member

    73RR nailed it on reasons to build a hemi. I built my 392 from seeing them run back in the early 60's watching them run in top fuel and just empressed with the look and design of the heads. While the sbc's were doing very well in lower drag racing classes top fuel was dominated by hemis. Parts may be a little more expensive but well worth the money if you want to build one. Just make sure the engine shop you use has some experience doing hemi engines and your money will be spent right the first time. Check out the hemi tech section here it has plenty of info on the engine and also shops by state.
     

  5. 340HilbornDuster
    Joined: Nov 14, 2011
    Posts: 1,985

    340HilbornDuster
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Cubic inches is Cubic Inches....?..in most cases.

    True 77RR
    A HEMI is a HEMI...It'll OUTRUN & OUTLOOK anything!..Ask Big Daddy!

    ...Yep!
     
  6. Snot Rocket
    Joined: Sep 8, 2012
    Posts: 122

    Snot Rocket
    Member

    Chrysler stopped using hemis in the 70s because of their inefficiency, started using them again because computers could manage the problems. Manufacturing cost was not a big factor overall, but they were never made in huge enough numbers to be inexpensive to make, mod, or rebuild. The cc design is very effective at making power, but the scavenging effect tended to use fuel at an alarming rate. Cam design can help that, but then the hemi advantage would be limited. They are most effective in the visual effect they have, with those mammoth valve covers sprouting plug wires.
     
  7. BadgeZ28
    Joined: Oct 28, 2009
    Posts: 1,165

    BadgeZ28
    Member
    from Oregon

    I had a 354 in a 56 Plymouth back in the early 1960's. You would need to put a ton of money in that motor to get over 350 HP IMO. They look impressive when you pop the hood. they do have good down low torque when stock. You will be adding a lot of weight to the front so I would recommend stiffer springs.
     
  8. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,698

    Weasel
    Member

    My question to truckedup: what are you building or planning on installing in? What are you going to use it for - street, racing, weekend warrior? This should help determine what kind of engine you install. As others have said, a hemi weighs a lot - 700 + lbs and will affect the handling. Do you want a Boulevard cruiser, a straight line terror or a canyon carver? A hemi is great eye candy and iconic but how important is public attention on your list - does it matter? Is the earth flat? These questions may be relevant to the end result....
     
  9. 35desoto
    Joined: Oct 6, 2009
    Posts: 775

    35desoto
    Member

    Chrysler stopped using them not because they were inefficient but because the numbers being produced/sold was low and when the fuel crisis hit in the 70's and the US Govt mileage requirements were enforced the hemi did not comply - but only because it was not built to be a fuel miser - it was a top end performance engine and used gas accordingly. Its design is very efficient however the dollars required to make it comply did not add up when the numbers being built were taken into consideration. It was an economis decision that saw the second generation of Hemi's be retired. All the car manufacturers suffered from this issue as the Muscle Car era died. 440 Mopars, 454 chev's and 460 Fords as examples became very aenemic once the fuel crisis hit. Their only saving grace once the compression, timing and big carbs went was their torque curve. Surely a sad time yet oiut of this we have some neat newer engines that have become fuel efficient on lower quality gas prob not as HAMB friendly as earlier engines yet they are the way of the future

     
  10. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,661

    Truckedup
    Member

    Not my engine. I build old Triumph bikes for a guy who like collections of noisy vehicles. He fell on a rotted to the bone old Hemi car and asked if I wanna help him do it.
    He has a Model sedan with a SBC......And a 56 Ford truck with a SBC. One of these vehicles I guess.
    Moderate build,nothing too serious.He likes the look...
     
  11. R Pope
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 3,309

    R Pope
    Member

    You can build pretty much anything to put out 375 street horses. Which engine you build is up to you, if you want a "Belly button" build go SBC, everyone has one. If you want a hemi, build a hemi. Or a Studebaker, or a Buick.......The Hemi has torque like a tractor, and an exhaust tone that can't be beat. And those rocker covers!
     
  12. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    They sold a stock 354 with 355 HP in 1956 (Chrysler 300) so 375HP with today's technology should be a pushover. With decent cam, headers, single 4 barrel carb and 9.5:1 compression it would be hard to keep it that low.

    As for why they stopped building them, 2 reasons. 1st when they started fuel quality was low and compression ratios limited to 7 or 7.5:1. As octane and compression ratios rose, they lost some of their advantage because rival makes with wedge head engines, found it easier to raise compression.

    The second reason was buyers were not interested in the most efficient engine. Chrysler was at a competitive disadvantage to cars with inferior motors, but larger displacement and similar HP. So they went to a conventional wedge head design which was lighter and cheaper to make.

    Of course when the chips were down and they needed the most powerful motor they could build, they redesigned the wedge head to a hemi head. Because everyone has known since 1912 that it is the most powerful and most efficient head design.

    Today they have the technology to build the most powerful, most fuel efficient engine they can design, and it turns out to be the hemi again.
     
  13. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,913

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One of the things I don't see here very often is the subject of exhaust rocker arms. The stock ones are kinda' long and spindly. When I first built the engine ('54 331 with an Engle roller tappet and a bunch of other stuff) for my dirt car, I didn't know about this "weak link" in the engine. The thrid time out, it began to run sour all of a sudden, and when I got it home, I found I had broken an exhaust rocker. I did a little research, and found out about Donovan forged exhaust rockers, but nobody had any. Less than a week later, I was at a Mopar swap meet, and what did I spy in an old box of parts? 7 Donovan forged rockers, which I bought for $35. I put those in (keeping the best stock rocker) and all was well. I tried to keep the revs down after that, while looking for an eighth rocker. Hot Heads had one for $75, so I put that in, and I haven't had any more trouble over the last 15 years.

    The stock intake rockers are probably OK unless you go crazy, so I try to keep the revs under 6000 by using the proper quickchange gears. I should mention that I am using adjustable pushrods, and adjust the valves at the beginning of every season. (It's not too bad a job if you buy a bunch of cheap wrenches and heat and bend them to fit.)

    I have another 331 I am thinking of building and am wondering; does any one still make these rockers any more? I know you can get the adjustable after market rocker assemblys for beaucoup bucks, and I believe the factory adjustables are probably little stronger than the non-adjustables. At my price for the rockers and a set of adjustable pushrods, this is a real money-saver on one of these engines. I would think there would be a demand for these,and while I know nothing about it, I would think tooling for these would be about the cheapest speed part one could make.
     
  14. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Reportedly Don Garlits said that the early(50s) Hemis were dropped to save $35 per engine. One of the car magazines a few years ago had an article about planned small block hemi that were around 350CID that were supposed to be made in the 70s, but didn['t happen. Can't remember if it said why, fuel/emissions, the poor financial condition of Chr then or what.
     
  15. das858
    Joined: Jul 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,014

    das858
    Member

    The main reason to use an early HEMI is it's the best looking engine ever made.
     
  16. Ghost28
    Joined: Nov 23, 2008
    Posts: 3,200

    Ghost28
    Member

    I have heard the 354 heads are better flowing than the 392 heads? We built a 354 with twin 4 barrels and it ran good but, got spanked by a few small blocks in this early stage, but with a little tinkering it started to hold it's own, but we wanted raw power so it was pulled and the engine was refitted to handle a 671 blower. now it's a real competitor.in the eighth or quarter mile. And still driven on the street. I like hemis
     
  17. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    The heads & intakes were squished down a bit, and the ex mans changed a bit, to get the engine to fit in the bay. The runners on the 392 aren't as strait as on the 331-354 heads. Garlits in the Tex Smith book claims it doesn't actually make any difference.
     
  18. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 518

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA

    old thread worth reviving, I've pondered this myself before.

    the early Hemi wins hands down in looks dept. and legendary status as a supercharged drag racing engine

    downside- for a true street machine, naturally aspirated, the early Hemi is very HEAVY, it weighs 200 lbs. more than a comparable powered SBC. That's 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile slower all else being equal.

    all the naturally aspirated early Hemis I've seen, were slow revvers. They have heavy bottom ends i.e. cranks/rods.

    the major drawback is, limited cubic inches in stock form- 400 CID is about it.

    a 354 with Hemi heads, is still only a 354. 1 HP per CID is still only...354HP

    that's only 300 HP to the back wheels net. We're not talking world beating HP here in N/A form.

    contrary to what most believe, the early Hemi chamber was very KNOCK PRONE in stock form with a mild cam, if you read the old road tests they complained about the engines pinging on anything but the best high test, high octane fuel.

    the next generation wedge engines i.e. 440 Mopar, 428 Pontiac, 428 Ford, 427 Ford, 455 Olds, 455 Buick, 454 Chevy would run rings around an early Hemi in N/A form, and spank an early Hemi pretty badly. If you ask around to the old timers they'll admit in N/A form during the 1960's the early Hemi was not a contender. The engines were given away free or for very low cost, as the new wedges made more power with less complexity and weight- and the new 426 Hemi was a lot better than the old 331/354/392, in N/A and supercharged form.

    having said that, I like early Hemis and have 2 of them, 331's, and want to put one together someday. It's not all about HP, at this point it's about heritage and history. Their cool factor is un-matched. The only wedge that can come close is a nailhead Buick 425 in that aspect.

    If I had to pick one engine that looked the best when the hood is opened it would be the early Hemi. It actually looks a little better than the later 426 Hemi IMHO.
     
    j-jock likes this.
  19. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    "contrary to what most believe, the early Hemi chamber was very KNOCK PRONE in stock form with a mild cam, if you read the old road tests they complained about the engines pinging on anything but the best high test, high octane fuel."

    Quite the opposite. When they introduced the hemi in 1951, one of the features they advertised was "mechanical octane" meaning they did not need high compression or expensive premium gas. They developed full power and performance, and more HP than their rivals, on regular gas with compression of 7.5:1.

    One of the problems of the hemi was, that it was difficult to get a high compression ratio without shrouding the valves. This was one of the advantages of the poly and wedge head engines. They had an easier time getting high compression and taking advantage of premium fuel.

    The race hemis they made from 1964 - 71 may have had knock problems but they also had extremely high compression ratio and were basically a racing engine. Other companies had similar problems with their top performance models, even though none of them could match the hemi in power and performance.
     
  20. GregCon
    Joined: Jun 18, 2012
    Posts: 689

    GregCon
    Member
    from Houston

    I love how Don Garlits is quoted as an expert on the Hemi. As if he ever knew anything about Chrysler's accounting department....
     
  21. hemi rodder
    Joined: Oct 10, 2011
    Posts: 510

    hemi rodder
    Member
    from NB Canada

    I am running a 354 on the street, I would estimate 400hp,isky cam, 10-1 pistons, ported heads, ect ... hard to beat the look factor, could have built more power for half the price, been there done that, wanted something different, hell, I will do again.
    sitting next to it under the cover is a 550 rwhp Camaro, I have just as much fun with either one, just different ride depending how I feel.
     

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    warrendodge likes this.
  22. when the flies get unzipped and the rulers come out the hemi is always bigger. always has been always will.
     
  23. mmiceli
    Joined: Jun 24, 2008
    Posts: 22

    mmiceli
    Member
    from Aurora, Il

    If anybody is an expert on the Hemi, Garlits is the man. He's been on Chrysler's payroll for over 50 years. You have to be a real simpleton to question Big's credentials.
     
  24. hipster
    Joined: Mar 1, 2014
    Posts: 98

    hipster
    Member

    No doubt. Always one of my heros but so are Bernstein, Kalitta.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Garlits
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel

    Hemis are cool, Offies are awesome, and Chevys/Fords are affordable AND quite capable of out running even the new production hemis. The old man always says "if they were SO good, why'd they stop making (insert noun/pronoun here)" and "cars get safer, faster every year, so why don't you sell all that old crap and buy a new one?" LOL

    Build it the way You want it and enjoy it for what it is. Aint that what this is all about?
     
    simpsonrl likes this.
  25. GregCon
    Joined: Jun 18, 2012
    Posts: 689

    GregCon
    Member
    from Houston

    You are the simpleton. Your comment shows how little you understand anything that goes on within a corporation. It's like suggesting Ronald McDonald is the expert on the annual contract McDonald's negotiates for onions.

    It might or might not be true that Chrysler switched to the wedge design to save $35 per engine .... but regardless, Don Garlits is hardly an expert source for that information.

    I have to go now - Pamela Anderson is on TV and she's testifying before Congress as to the chemical stability of silicone under high pressure subterranean mining applications.





     
  26. ^^^ hahahahaha winner!
     
  27. mmiceli
    Joined: Jun 24, 2008
    Posts: 22

    mmiceli
    Member
    from Aurora, Il

    Read Big Daddy, His Life His Dreams. Published in 1990. When he switched to a wedge for his Swamp Rat IV-A, he addressed that very subject. Chrysler wanted him to run the new wedge but it didn't perform up to Big's expectations. Who got the first Drag Pak challengers? He is Chryslers drag racing envoy. I think comparing Ronald Mcdonald to the greatest drag racer ever is quite a stretch. Garlits moved to Michigan in 1964 to be close to corporate headquarters. Checking the archives, "Chrysler's public announcement was" Declining sales and cost of production". Let's put this one to bed and get ready for spring.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  28. 70chall440
    Joined: Jul 29, 2011
    Posts: 572

    70chall440
    Member

    as it has been alluded to and somewhat stated here, it all depends on what you want the end state to be. There is nothing as eye catching as the hemi design, however if pure performance is your goal, then you have many options. This isnt to say that a hemi can make power (obviously they can); however using an early Hemi comes with some challenges with regards to parts vice a more modern engine. Bottom line is that there isnt any free lunches; you want performance and sex appeal and image, a Hemi is it but it comes with some challenges. You want performance and ease of getting parts; go with something more modern. Having recently rebuilt a 1st Gen, 2nd Gen Hemi as well as a stroked 340, I can say that the $$ to do any of them is directly related to where you want to be at the back side. If you can reduce your "mission creep" to a minimum and are not trying to make huge power and intend to flog it daily; you could as 73RR states make decent power fairly easy. it all comes down to what you (or your buddy) wants.
     
  29. You either have one or you don't.
    Nobody cares why you don't.

    You either want one or you don't.
    Nobody cares why you don't.

    The " the why you don't" is usually some internal justification to feel better about not having one or being able to get one.

    Too heavy ?
    Weigh one with aluminum intake manifold, tube headers, aluminum water pump, if you have deep pockets throw some aluminum heads at it too. 2 -3 point up on compression with aluminum heads. Weigh that and post a dyno
     
    woodsnwater likes this.

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