62 Thunderbird rear brakes getting hot

may very well be master cylinder not releasing pressure if dual.I have also seen flex line rupture.if not too much of a pain apply the pedal 2or3 times to build pressure in lines.then try turning rear brake drum.if dragging or not moving.crack the rear brake line fitting coming from master.then try turning drum if valve not releasing in master then by cracking line you will release pressure.

 

Well fitted new hose today got and guess what, dam brakes still dragging on left rear.

I then followed the advise given here on the Hamb and jacked up the rear and pump the brakes a few times. The left rear drum stayed locked and when I released the bleed valve it started to turn.

Its seems to me that the brake booster is not completely releasing when the pedal is released which is holding the brake shoes with the weakest springs open which in this case is the left rear. This seems to be confirmed by some pedal slop that I hadn't noticed before.

I had cancelled my order with Mac's for the new booster hoping it was going to be the hose. This afternoon I ended up ordering a new booster and MC from Summit which cost $611-00 including freight to NZ Ouch

My booster was the type with the screws around the outside holding the two halves together but they are no longer available so I had to get the type which is clamped together. I sure hope its the correct one, Under applications it said Thunderbird 61 through 63.

Another frustrating day but I guess that what cars are all about.

 

<TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4194 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 bgColor=#ffffff border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4193> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4301> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4300 width=600> <TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4299 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4298> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4297> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4296 height=5 width=570> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4355 width=15> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4289> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4288 width=600> <TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4287 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4286> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4285> <TD width=15> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4293 vAlign=top width=85 align=left> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4292 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4284 vAlign=top width=198 align=left>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]AAZ-54-79401
Brake Booster, Replacement, Vacuum, Each
(Mfr. #: 54-79401) [/FONT] 1 AAZ-54-79401 is expected to ship on 03/05/14.
</TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4394 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4395 vAlign=top width=78 align=left> Backordered
Air Freight
</TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4397 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4398 vAlign=top width=64 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$386.97[/FONT] </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4400 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4401 vAlign=top width=32 align=center>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 * [/FONT]</TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4403 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4404 vAlign=top width=67 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$386.97[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4194 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 bgColor=#ffffff border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4193> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4281> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4280 width=600> <TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4279 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4278> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4277> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4276 width=570> <HR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4282 width=570> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4358 width=15> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4255> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4254 width=600> <TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4253 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4252> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4251> <TD width=15> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4421 vAlign=top width=85 align=left> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4420 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4274 vAlign=top width=198 align=left>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BEN-11403
MASTER CYLINDER; NEW MASTER CYLINDER;
(Mfr. #: 11403) [/FONT]</TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4428 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4273 vAlign=top width=78 align=left> Ready to Ship
Air Freight
</TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4272 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4250 vAlign=top width=64 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$40.79[/FONT] </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4431 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4432 vAlign=top width=32 align=center>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 [/FONT]</TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4433 width=10> </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4434 vAlign=top width=67 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$40.79[/FONT] </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4360 width=11></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4259 style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=271 bgColor=#ffffff border=0> <TBODY id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4258> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4365> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4469 vAlign=top width=198 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Part Subtotal:[/FONT] </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4480 width=10></TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4364 vAlign=top width=63 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$427.76[/FONT] </TD></TR> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4465> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4468 vAlign=top width=198 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Core Charge:[/FONT] </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4464 width=10></TD> <TD vAlign=top width=63 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$75.00[/FONT] </TD></TR> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4257> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4256 vAlign=top width=198 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Additional Shipping Charge:[/FONT] </TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4486 width=10></TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4463 vAlign=top width=63 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$108.69[/FONT] </TD></TR> <TR id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4484> <TD vAlign=top width=198 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Total Charges[/FONT] </TD> <TD width=10></TD> <TD id=yui_3_7_2_1_1393398456552_4483 vAlign=top width=63 align=right>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$611.45[/FONT] </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

I had at one time, bad axle bearings on the rear. They would heat up so bad that even the rim was hot to the touch. I realize that I am not an expert, but if the brakes and brake hardware turn out all right, might be something to look at.

 

Try completely removing the parking brake cable (unhook it at the lever inside the drum assy or even take the lever off completely). I had this problem with both my Chevy pickup and my Bronco. In both cases the cable was dragging enough to keep the shoes from retracting.

I know you said it is free, but try completely disconnecting it to rule the dragging cableout definitively.

 

Well this is the point where I'd start getting obsessive with the troubleshooting. Do the test like you did in your last post, only this time instead of cracking open the LH bleeder screw, crack the fitting coming out of the master cylinder. Also, it looks like you may still have a single circuit master cylinder. Have you changed the brake proportion valve? Maybe pump up the brakes again and crack the fitting for the rear brake pipe at the prop. valve.

Before throwing money at more parts you might still be able to better narrow down where your problem is. With a single circuit master cylinder I still have a mental block about it affecting just one rear wheel. And even after it gets downstream of the proportioning valve it seems like it should affect BOTH rear wheels.

For some reason you haven't added some residual pressure valves in the brake lines anywhere, have you?

Swap all the brake springs from one side to the other and see if the problem moves to the RH side.

 

The brake booster shouldn't have anything to do with your problem. If the booster were bad, it would effect all wheels, not just one. Also, if a booster is bad, the pedal is extremely hard. Its only duty is to assist the braking pressure needed.

I would look at the individual wheel cylinder or hardware on that side as a problem.

Also, that master cylinder might not be right. That #11403 is the old base number for the early 1961 with 1" bore & production date before 6/9/61. It is used on the 1961 booster that has an octogon sided back plate.

You should be looking for a #11248 master cylinder which is used on both the banded & 10 screw style booster.

 

Was the right rear completely free before you opened the bleeder?

Before you throw money at it I would confirm that the problem follows the hardware and check everything else, as Claymart suggested. I, too, would think it would effect all wheels not just one.

Kevin

 

Had the same problem with my 62. Went through the whole brake system 2 or 3 times and couldn't figure it out.

The problem turned out to be a faulty brake wheel cylinder.. although it was new.. the pistons inside were hanging up.

Replaced the cylinder and the problem was solved.

 

Also make sure you have your brake shoes installed correctly..because, while the 2 sides look similar...they are different...if you switch them around it will cause the pad to bind on the drum..

Sorry if this has been mentioned previously...I just skimmed through the post.

 

Thanks for the I information, When you say they are different do you mean. Front shoe versus rear shoe or right side of car versus left.
cheers Peter

 

I checked out your info see what your saying and thankyou for your help. Even thought the Summit site says it will fit.
I double checked the bore of my current master cylinder and it is 7/8" and I can see several sites saying it should be 7/8". So I called Larry's Thunderbird and the guy tells me it should be 1" and the one I have must be off a Galaxy. Man what next, I don't know if he is correct or what???

I have a 1" coming already from Summit so I am going to order a 7/8" online then I will have both. I know it seems like I'm wasting money but the Beach Hop is coming up and I am running out of time plus I don't have the luxury of being able to step out and visit a US car part supply store.

While I wait for the parts to arrive I will try to find out which one is correct.

 

Take a look at the primary brake shoe lining vs the secondary positioning. If you get them changed around it will bind:

 

According to my brake info, the '62-'63 T-Birds used a 1" master w/out power and 7/8" with power. (Kind of backwards of what is normally used)

 

With self-energizing brakes, here's why it's important that the primary and secondary shoes are installed properly.

http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/rear-brake-shoe-replacement.html

And now you can also try swapping your wheel cylinders from side to side! Ummmm... if that's even physically possible. OK, maybe not.

 

in checking in on your progress I realize your master is single.so what I stated would not have applied sorry.but I do agree that booster should affect all wheels.very well may be wheel cylinder if not both rears as was suggested.may not be fully retracting due to weak springs or wheel cylinders have rust or crud keeping the cups held open similar to calipers seizing or not fully releasing due to crud.gradually get worse then finally lock up.

 

this would sound more like it as I had a car that the rear brake wouldn't work and it was due to rust in the cylinder bore , and it was very little too , an it would be more apt to be on the return vs the application due to pressures involved ( 900psi vs 100 spring return ) I would pop the dust boots off and take a look or push them with a screw driver to see if they are returning or sticking , they should move very easily with the pedal released .
as brake dust does get in there and it asorbs water .

 

Just got a chance to check this tonight, If I'm looking at the pictures posted correctly the secondary shoes have more brake lining on them.

On both sides of my T Bird the secondary or longer shoes are on the front.

Question: Is this because the park brake cable enters from the rear instead of the front??

 

There is a left and a right so I don't think this is possible, I did follow through on the primary and secondary info you posted as in the above post.

I meet up with a friend on the weekend at the Pukekohe swap meet who put a bet on it that the MC would be the issue. He's a mechanic and ex T Bird owner. I guess I will have the answer to that one when the new MC arrives this week.

 

They have been replaced with brand new ones and still the issue persists

 

I have been following my factory shop manual to the letter and just found this info on the Vintage Thunderbird site.

http://www.vintagethunderbirdclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125&highlight=primary+shoe

 

so is yours short front long rear or reversed ?? if its reversed ( long front ) then you possibly solved your problem .. as they will try to energize the brakes and drag as they( fronts) engage first then push the back shoe as it tries to rotate them ( energize ) and multiplies the brake force..and that extra clearance allows them to back off when the pedal is released and gives a long lead time till engagement

 

Ratman,

Are you on the squarebirds.org site?

If not, you should be.

Best site on the planet for solving problems with these old 'birds.

 

Long front and short rear.

 

I wasn't but now I am. Thanks for the information.

Peter

 

Interesting find... You think you're doing the right thing by using the shop manual, then find out later that the manual is wrong! I'd say definitely swap the shoes around so the short shoe is toward the front. I'd think this would have more to do with the brakes' effectiveness than with a tendancy for the brake to drag. But I've drawn the wrong conclusion about things before.

 

A few winters ago I rebuilt the front end of my 58 'Bird. When adjusting the front passenger-side wheel bearing, I noticed the wheel would spin freely and then suddenly the brakes would grab. It was weird. I believe I reversed the shoes and the problem went away. The guys on squarebirds.org helped me figure it out. I was glad I found it while on the jackstands, and not on the street.

 

I dont recall you mentioning that you had changed rear brakes before this started.probably would have made it easier for people to help.not being an ass.hope that ends up being your problem.so much for factory manual of that age I have found some on my 54 also.