A gripe about Master cylinders

cornbinder52 · Jan 5, 2013

Drove my 90 f150 with a blown rear line for three weeks before I could get it fixed. Brakes were shitty, but drove to St. Louis from home (3 hrs) twice on "no" brakes. Got to pay attention of what's ahead of you. Same on my 79 f 150. Rear line blew and moisture ruined the proportioning valve. If dual circuit is working properly you should still have brakes. Still don't have rears on the 79.

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S_Mazza · Jan 23, 2013

Stumbled across this page today. Lots of "interesting" reading about brake line failures on GM trucks and vans.

http://trucks.about.com/b/2011/09/2...tigation-of-gm-truck-brake-line-corrosion.htm

I found it interesting how many people said they lost all brakes, or nearly all brakes. In many cases, it was due to multiple brake line failures at once. Rust being the original cause, of course.

Better look under my car when I get home ...

S_Mazza · Jan 23, 2013

Stumbled across this page today. Lots of "interesting" reading about brake line failures on GM trucks and vans.

http://trucks.about.com/b/2011/09/2...tigation-of-gm-truck-brake-line-corrosion.htm

http://trucks.about.com/b/2011/08/01/brake-line-corrosion-suspected-in-gm-trucks.htm

I found it interesting how many people said they lost all brakes, or nearly all brakes, at the time of the failure. Pedal to the floor and still not stopping. In many cases, it was due to multiple brake line failures at once. Rust being the original cause, of course.

Better look under my car when I get home ...

tommy · Jan 24, 2013

I find it interesting that there seem to be a lot of failures on cars from the 90s. I never had a brake line rust out or "pop" as you say. The first line to pop was the one to the rear wheels. Way up high just under the bed where it turned down to the crossmember. Visual inspection would never have suspected a thing. The line was still shiny. a year or so later a front line popped going from the distribution block to the RF wheel. All the old cars that I have had and I've never had a brake line burst. it seems to be a modern problem possibly due to shoddy materials. JMHO

mgtstumpy · Jan 24, 2013

Mandatory tandem M/C here if you want registration, better to be safe than sorry.

papajohn · Jan 24, 2013

I disagree. I popped a rear line in my daughter's OT tracker, and drove it to work and back. Didn't have great brakes, but they were there and they stopped it. I have had the same thing happen in a single cylinder car, and had nothing at all.

LSR 2909 · Jan 24, 2013

porkchop4464 said: ↑

I am running a one pot master cylinder on my car. Everytime anyone sees it, they say"Better get a dual master from GM or Ford on there! If you lose a line ..." But the truth is, in every car that I have owned through the last 20 years, whenever I have lost a line from rot, the pedal goes to the floor. So where is the gain in saftey? Maybe more fluid and a few more pumps! I guess that one or two extra pumps to slow down may be the life saving pumps; but for the most- it's a bolt face lie from the big 4. The cylinders are connected , so they both piss out brake fluid if one is out. I have had people argue with me that they don't because they are designed not to; but I have lost brakes many more times than I liked with all the junks I have driven through the years; and I am here to say that you don't keep fronts or backs if a line goes; after a few pumps, they are all gone and the pedal is thumping against the carpet and you are white knuckling it over the divider!
Click to expand...

Carpet.......?

porkchop4464 · Jan 29, 2013

What's this about then?

From: NHTSA's Ongoing Investigation of GM Truck Brake Line Corrosion n 2010,

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) began a preliminary investigation into complaints from owners whose GM vehicles experienced brake line corrosion. Over 6-million trucks and SUVs (1999 - 2003 models) were included in the preliminary look at the problem. The ODI determined that the issue occurs most often in salt-belt vehicles, areas where winter weather requires the use of harsh chemicals to rid roads of snow and ice, saying that, in those areas, 43 trucks per 100,000 vehicles seem to be affected, versus 3 vehicles per 100,000 in other states.
General Motors has said that the vehicles should still be able to stop, even if a failure occurs, and that in most cases the warning lamp will light-up before brake levels are low enough to cause a total brake failure, but the NHTSA reports that in 25-percent of the failures, drivers received no warning. Stopping distances for some drivers were too long to avoid a crash, and other drivers steered their trucks into another lane or off the road to avoid a wreck.

porkchop4464 · Jan 29, 2013

As noted above in the article, and by so many on this site as well, when the pedal goes to the floor, regardless if there is a 1/4 inch and you can't stop within a couple hundred feet - you have no breaks! Period! There are too many who have supported it and who it happened to.

CutawayAl · Jan 29, 2013

porkchop4464 said: ↑

As noted above in the article, and by so many on this site as well, when the pedal goes to the floor, regardless if there is a 1/4 inch and you can't stop within a couple hundred feet - you have no breaks! Period! There are too many who have supported it and who it happened to.
Click to expand...

I assume you meant brakes instead of "breaks"? If the brakes are spit front-rear(as nearly all older cars were) and you lose the front brakes, rears brakes alone don't stop very well. But, it's way better than nothing. To avoid the rear only problem, newer cars are usually split diagonally, meaning one front and the opposite rear on each half of the system.

S_Mazza · Jan 29, 2013

CutawayAl said: ↑

I assume you meant brakes instead of "breaks"? If the brakes are spit front-rear(as nearly all older cars were) and you lose the front brakes, rears brakes alone don't stop very well. But, it's way better than nothing. To avoid the rear only problem, newer cars are usually split diagonally, meaning one front and the opposite rear on each half of the system.
Click to expand...

Yes, but experiences of failure vary greatly. One the one hand, you have a guy who drove around in his daughter's Tracker with one front and one rear and thought it was reasonably safe. And on the other hand are dozens of people who had complete or almost complete loss of brakes - as noted in the complaints leading to the NHTSA investigation that is happening right now.

CutawayAl · Jan 29, 2013

S_Mazza said: ↑

Yes, but experiences of failure vary greatly. One the one hand, you have a guy who drove around in his daughter's Tracker with one front and one rear and thought it was reasonably safe. And on the other hand are dozens of people who had complete or almost complete loss of brakes - as noted in the complaints leading to the NHTSA investigation that is happening right now.
Click to expand...

The NHTSA info posted here didn't say there were complete failures, it says stopping distances were too great to avoid an accident. While that can happen anytime you lose half your brakes, the biggest problem is when the rears fail on a front-rear split. Having skidded through a red light at a busy intersection with rear wheels locked, I got to experience that first hand.

NHTSA is saying 43 per 100,000. I don't have anything official, but some cars seem to have a higher incidence than that of rusted brake lines. The rusty brake line issue is eventually going to hit the fan. A number of years ago the S.A.E. recommended switching to cupro-nickel(Cunifer) lines. A few high end cars use it. Mainstream manufacturers would apparently rather save the cost and take their chances.

Heo2 · Jan 29, 2013

porkchop4464 said: ↑

I have been in several cars, when a line or a hose blew, with a dual pot, and besides the few pumps that slowed me down enough to get to the side of the road, it will bleed all out if you keep pumping. The larger res. will get you three four, maybe 5 more pumps, which will save your life in the correct situation. There are five people on this post alone who have said they popped a hose or line on a stock, unmod'ed system, and they went up on the grass. Again, I can agree that four or six pumps, compared to 2 or 3 is a better scenerio, but there is way too much confidence out there that the big four actually give a shit about our saftey. If such were the case, a thing like brake lines would be mandatory stainless from the factory- so they never rotted. Think about that for a minute, 25,000 for a cheap car today and they can't put 100 bucks more material in stainless lines! It was a patent that was great and they never followed after it or pushed the manufac. to continue with the saftey. I am not being wise; but next time you flush your brake fluid (flush, inspect, refill, and bleed), leave one line off and pump about 5 or six times, maybe 10-11 total; it will pump until both pots are empty. Why is that?
Click to expand...

If it empty both pots its obvious that there is a internal leak in the
master cylinder if you understod the basics of a hydrualic system
you had been abel to figure that out
if yo loose one circuit and have to pump the brakes there is
an internal leak those who dont understand that should not
mess around with the brakes. Farm it out to some one who
know how to service brakes and stop spreading missinformation
based on your own lack of skills

S_Mazza · Jan 29, 2013

Heo2 said: ↑

If it empty both pots its obvious that there is a internal leak in the
master cylinder if you understod the basics of a hydrualic system
you had been abel to figure that out
if yo loose one circuit and have to pump the brakes there is
an internal leak those who dont understand that should not
mess around with the brakes. Farm it out to some one who
know how to service brakes and stop spreading missinformation
based on your own lack of skills
Click to expand...

If there is an internal leak in the MC with no outward warning signs, doesn't that rather prove the point that you can get a false sense of security?

Heo2 · Jan 29, 2013

Well take all brake parts of the car then you
dont get any false sense of security at all

S_Mazza · Jan 29, 2013

Heo2 said: ↑

Well take all brake parts of the car then you
dont get any false sense of security at all
Click to expand...

Haha. That's one way to look at it.

Your statement reminds me of a family member who will notice a problem with her car, or her house's electrical panel, or what ever the object may be, and she asks me, "What's the worst thing that could happen if I keep using it?" But when I tell her that, yes, there is a chance that her house could burn to the ground and everyone could die, she never seems too happy with me.

I would personally rather understand the risks instead of sticking my head in the sand. Then I can enjoy the safety features provided without unrealistic expectations of what they can do.

CutawayAl · Jan 29, 2013

The problem is; brake fluid is sneaky and can't be trusted. It works in darkness and seclusion. With no means of direct oversight it is free to become insubordinate at any time, without warning. Cable operated brakes on the other hand; you can watch them do their work. Nothing is hidden or abstract. If they were any simpler they wouldn't work. Hydraulic brakes were introduced by aliens as a way to slowly take over the world.

Now about jet engines; like hydraulic brakes, they are sneaky. You can't see that they are doing. Am I supposed to believe you can build a fire in a tube and not have it come out of both ends? With propellers you can see them auguring through the air. Propellers are honest like cable brakes.

Automatic transmissions; I have had those apart and I say there is no way they can actually work. Radio waves, electricity, magnetism, evidence of alien infiltration is everywhere.

porkchop4464 · Jan 31, 2013

tommy said: ↑

I find it interesting that there seem to be a lot of failures on cars from the 90s. I never had a brake line rust out or "pop" as you say. The first line to pop was the one to the rear wheels. Way up high just under the bed where it turned down to the crossmember. Visual inspection would never have suspected a thing. The line was still shiny. a year or so later a front line popped going from the distribution block to the RF wheel. All the old cars that I have had and I've never had a brake line burst. it seems to be a modern problem possibly due to shoddy materials. JMHO
Click to expand...

Tommy, I agree with you; I think the anwser falls in the big companies investing the extra 100 bucks per car (if that much per car considering how much stock they buy) and using stainless.

porkchop4464 · Feb 1, 2013

CutawayAl said: ↑

I assume you meant brakes instead of "breaks"? If the brakes are spit front-rear(as nearly all older cars were) and you lose the front brakes, rears brakes alone don't stop very well. But, it's way better than nothing. To avoid the rear only problem, newer cars are usually split diagonally, meaning one front and the opposite rear on each half of the system.
Click to expand...

Really? "Breaks" is the response for a "gotcha!" line? You can't even get a simple play on words – a pun? Man! I know I wrote it quickly, and didn’t give it much mind, but damn! What is this site coming to? It is true, I may be slipping with too many irons in the fire as of late. I haven't been on as much as I'd like. People, we are better than this. Regardless of the nine examples, and one "it happened to me," it's still being argued? Okay, I'm calling the nine out, and my account as well. Damn liars!
Regardless, keep it going; this thing might just make 30 pages!

porkchop4464 · Feb 1, 2013

As Cousin Brucie says, "...and The hits just keep right on coming!" CBS FM, 101.

porkchop4464 · Feb 1, 2013

Oh, and one last one. Great attack Heo2! You bring up the point that the internals of a master can, in fact, leak, and as a result, all brakes will be lost. So having a two pot system without a line even breaking (not braking) you can lose all brakes as well? Thanks for the fuel for my fire. Point being, the system is not what it’s cracked up to be. The big companies don’t care about your safety. If so, the lines would be stainless and there would be two separated cylinders that can’t bleed. Anyway, if you are going to debate, use effective points to prove your final message. If you, instead, use comedy, sarcasm and foolishness, you only support the other party and are no longer successfully debating, you are simply a masturbator. Dem's is the breaks; no, sorry, I meant the brakes - or did I?

CutawayAl · Feb 1, 2013

porkchop4464 said: ↑

Really? "Breaks" is the response for a "gotcha!" line? You can't even get a simple play on words a pun? Man! I know I wrote it quickly, and didnt give it much mind, but damn! What is this site coming to? It is true, I may be slipping with too many irons in the fire as of late. I haven't been on as much as I'd like. People, we are better than this. Regardless of the nine examples, and one "it happened to me," it's still being argued? Okay, I'm calling the nine out, and my account as well. Damn liars!
Regardless, keep it going; this thing might just make 30 pages!
Click to expand...

What "gotcha" are you talking about? Did you read my response to the NHTSA post?

As to "breaks", I barely passed high school English so I don't have much of a foundation for correcting others. I was just surprised to see that common mistake from one who claims to be a teacher of high school English. .

Dan Timberlake · Feb 1, 2013

zeuglodon said: ↑

I live in Ohio.

snippety

I currently have as a dd a 97 Dakota that is totally clean and looks new. I never would have anticipated a brake line pop.....but that's what happened - long line to both rear brakes.

==============================

Life of standard plated bundy tubing here in Massachusetts is 20 years, max.
- A friend just traded in his 96 Dakota last fall, triggered by fuel and brake line rust. Lived in Ohio most of its life until moving to MAssachusetts a few years back. Brake and fuel lines were VERY rusty.
- last month My daughter's 96 Honda needed extensive brake line replacement due to leaks. I was glad to see the shop used cunifer tubing

The cunifer bronze lines on our half dozen Volvos (used cunifer since ~1978) always looked great
Click to expand...

HEATHEN · Feb 1, 2013

I will say this....I don't see the point of a dual master cylinder that's got a transfer groove that runs the entire height of the resevoir divider. That's the setup my ex-wife's Grand Voyager has, and when she blew a brake line, it used up all of the fluid from both chambers in short order....she may as well have been driving a '49 Ford.

porkchop4464 · Feb 1, 2013

Heathen, this is what I was attempting to say. Of all the cars I have owned, I have experienced both scenarios noted on this long post. A few pages back, I told the story of a Rabbit I owned in the Eighties that I drove around for a while until I junked it with just one pot hooked up because of a rusted line that I beat closed and vise gripped. But I have also, in my travels, owned an Explorer (94) a K car (88) and a Plymouth Voyager (96), and when each popped a line you just couldn’t drive them.

The reason I originally started this post was out of true anger and frustration. About a year ago, I picked up a Dodge Caravan to drive back and forth to work and spare my car from the salt up my way during the winters. Anyway, I picked up this 2000 Caravan for a grand. The van, as I know all too well, has the often mentioned, and in my opinion, worthless cross brake line setup (front to back /left to right system).

Anyway, I went out one morning to go to work (not too many months ago), started it up, pushed down the brake pedal and it went slowly to the floor. Turns out the rear brake line popped and within a few pumps it had pissed all over the undercarriage and my driveway. The line rotted in an odd spot where it’s hard to see as it crossed over the dummy axle and fuel cell in the rear of the van. The pedal, in my drive way, after five or six pumps was to the floor – period.

Long story short, about 150 bucks in lines, a master cylinder, and an entire weekend of working with the factory ends and a cheap flaring block, I restrung that convoluted cross-eyed botch of a system; and I am not even going to go into the nonsense of dealing with the frozen load sensor/leveling valve in the rear of the van. But after ripping every line out and replacing each, she stops like a dream now; and I drive that piece of crap to work every day.

It comes down to crap materials and saving money – plain and simple. Again, why are there not stainless lines or separate cylinders? Why are the plungers/rings for each pot on the same shaft? Grime can cause grooves and make way down the entire length of the cylinder when both pots share the same shaft and bore. Sorry! I never suggested a conspiracy. It simply boils down to a cheap and crappy design.

Dapostman · Feb 1, 2013

HEATHEN said: ↑

I will say this....I don't see the point of a dual master cylinder that's got a transfer groove that runs the entire height of the resevoir divider. That's the setup my ex-wife's Grand Voyager has, and when she blew a brake line, it used up all of the fluid from both chambers in short order....she may as well have been driving a '49 Ford.
Click to expand...

I had This happen on an 80's K, no divider whatsoever, went from normal to zero in one stop. I'm planing twin masters and a balance bar, I also get true redundancy.

TrampSteer · Feb 26, 2014

STURGIS39 said: ↑

I saw on ABC the other night that the government wants car to have black boxes like airplanes. I guess some new cars already have them and they report back to the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

I heard years ago that they were experimenting with this in Wisconsin where I grew up. After a particularly horrifying accident they reviewed the voice recorder from the pickup truck and the last thing they heard was "Here, hold my beer. I'm gonna try something."

True story.

almost

ago · Feb 26, 2014

I see plenty of photos of cars built with too little M/C travel. If you can't bottom the master cylinder completely with no fluid in it. THE DUAL SAFETY SYSTEM WONT WORK.

Ago

tikiwagon13 · Feb 26, 2014

53sled said: ↑

I lost a single pot master and had nada, no brakes, in one stop light. I had to jump a curb to keep from going into oncoming traffic.
I had my daily driver (modern dual circuit) go bad in traffic. 4 lanes of tail lights. It had a diminished feel, but was able to safely get out of harm's way. no need for e-brake.
But I could be wrong. I'm sure it is just a big government conspiracy. I mean look at all those race cars with single chamber master cylinders on them.

Click to expand...

Correct, the racecar setup uses single masters, however there are two of them acuated by the same pedal.

spiders web · Feb 28, 2014

Brakes are for baby's. The pedal to the right is all you need. Hammer down!!!!!!!!!!!

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A gripe about Master cylinders

cornbinder52
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