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Can anyone I.D. these Model T Wheels?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by wsdad, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    Hello,

    I have two different kinds of wheels on a model t frame I bought. Two of them have larger center holes than the other two (see pictures). Can anyone tell me what wheels I have, why they are different, or any other information?

    Thanks!

    Edit: More pictures added below.
     

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  2. Those appear to be model A wheels mounted to the T hub. Some pics of the whole wheel setup would be helpful, but they look like 27/29 A and 30/31 A wheels on T hubs.

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  3. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    Can I run model A wheels mounted on a T hub?

    Thanks for the reply. Here's some more pictures. First the big hole wheel:
     

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  4. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    Here's the small hole wheel:

    Is there any danger in using model A wheels mounted on model T hubs? Any advantages? Disadvantages? The guy I got it from was using it as a trailer around his farm, not on the street as I would like to.
     

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  5. I would recommend having the wheels checked out for cracks or out of true. The hubs are farmer engineered so no go on the hubs. There are plenty of aftermarket suppliers for adapting T's to A wheels. What kind of car are you planning to build?

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  6. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    I'm building something like a cross between a Chassis Research TE448, Dick Kraft's "The Bug," and a T Bucket/Roadster.
     
  7. I would not trust those wheels- and it's probably cheaper to find better ones than have those checked and restored.
     
  8. I would say sell what you have and buy a 28-48 style axle or tube axle and tube frame. T axles/chassis/frame won't handle too much high speed or high HP motors.

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  9. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    You're probably right. However, I don't have anything checked and restored if I can check and restore it myself. My time working on cars is not measured in dollars per hour because I enjoy it. An hour sanding on a rusty wheel beats an hour of watching TV, for me. Learning to true a spoked wheel is exciting. It will probably take a couple of months of evenings after work to restore these wheels but I'll enjoy it.

    Learning I had model A wheels is also part of the enjoyment.

    You may be right, I may wind up tossing/selling these to buy some that's in better shape. But I'd like to give them a try just for the fun of it.

    Besides, I have purchased items that were supposed to be "in better shape" only to be disappointed. When I do the work myself I know it's done right and safely because I don't have to mind production. I can take my time and be meticulous. Sorry for the long rant.

    What are the advantages/disadvantages to using model A wheels on a model T hub?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  10. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    To do any of these cars you need to scrap the "T" axle and "A" wheels idea all together! The stuff you have is way too light to do that sort of stuff with. These cars all ran either custom tube axles, or '28-'34 stuff, and Model "A" wheels really haven't had a "hot rod" use until the rat rods started popping up in the late nineties. I'm not quite sure how some of the guys can look at a Dragster/T-Bucket motorcycle type laced wheel and see the same thing in an "A" wheel, but that somehow has happened. Keep looking and find the right stuff for your application.

    Oh, and don't "scrap" the "T" stuff, stockpile it and later build a speedster with it that would have accurately used that sort of componentry.
     
  11. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    I have a '40 axle that would be pretty cool drilled full of holes and hanging on the front of this thing and I may have to use it instead of the T axle. However, I wanted to go for more of a home - built early '50's rail type look, kind of like "The Bug." As you suggested, the frame between the engine and rear end, where all the torque will be transferred, will need to be reinforced with round tubing. The front of the frame, however, will be left as-is so it can flex as it was made to do. There will be very little weight on the front.
     
  12. Its not weight as much as frame flex. T frames were made as part of the suspension and so it flexed to deal with rough terrain. The amount of reinforcement needed to handle a v6 or v8 would make it very heavy and still possibly unsafe. Most early rodders used A or later ford or heavier built chassis of other auto manufacturers and still reinforced many of them. It just a suggestion, but like I said I would not use the T frame or chassis components. The chassis is worth decent money to a collector; that or build a gow job. Ask a chassis expert.

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  13. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    I think you and I are building different eras of cars. (I've been following your '60's build - it's awesome!) Here are a couple of pictures of early '50's rails in the style/era I'm shooting for, running Henry's spoked wheels. I wasn't alive back then so all I have to go on are pictures and advice/comments from folks like you - which I welcome because this is my first home built car.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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  14. All the frames in those pictures are either production car frames from the 30's or tube with A front and rear crossmembers. I would invest in some 2x4 heavy wall tube and some crossmembers, or buy an A frame and modify it.

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  15. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member



    Well, my current theory is that the front of a rail is lighter than the front of a model T. So the T axle, while not being as strong as the model A, should be strong enough.

    [​IMG]

    This is from a 1913 catalog. Mr. Ford sent a few of these twisted front axles around the country to promote how tough his new car was. It looks like it will want to bend instead of snap if I push it past it's capabilities. That should afford some margin of safety if I start out slow and work my way up, inspecting it each step along the way.

    It's true, a model A's chassis and suspension are heavier and stronger than a Model T's. That's really needed on a regular hot rod, where the big engine sits close to the front axle.

    On a rail, the front axle will be quite a ways away from the engine. It should have less weight on it than when it was originally in the model T. I think it will actually be over-built for use on front of the rail. It's smallness/lightness is exactly the reason I want to use it. I want the car to be as light as possible, given the style/era restrictions I've placed on myself (while still being safe, of course).

    A fire truck would be even stronger and safer than a model A, but I think they both would be stronger and heavier than what is needed, based on the weight they will be carrying.

    How strong were the widely used Angla's axles and hubs? How did they compare to the model T in strength and weight?

    Have I thought of everything? Can anyone shoot holes in my theory? If so, please do. I genuinely want to hear it.
     
  16. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    I partially agree with you about the rear of the car.

    The back of the car will be tube framed. The front will be model T.

    The front of the car should be lighter than a model T. So the model T frame should theoretically be strong enough by itself. However, I may beef it up a little more if testing shows it's needed.
     
  17. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Thanks for the compliment on my thread! I have built tons of '40s and 50's stuff though, too. All of your pictures are great examples, and I especially dig the first one with the Chevy six on board. But, there isn't a "T" axle or a Model "A" wheel anywhere in sight in any of those pictures. The wheels are all "early Ford" 16" or 17" wires, which would be '35 for the 16", and '33-'34 for the 17"s. I had thought all these years that Dick Kraft's frame was based on "T" stuff, but in the picture the frame shown has no tapers at the ends and a Model "A" front cross member.
     
  18. I agree with need louvers, buts its your car, talk to a frame expert is the last advice I'm giving because unless you have gone to the experts like I and many of us do, you could end up in a world of hurt. Dick Kraft used a 27 T rear crossmember and the attacment point of the crossmember, but the frame forward was tube. As it is, it was considered unsafe even back then. It's not just about vintage hot rods and customs, it's about safety first, not just yours, but others as well.

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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  19. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,259

    wsdad
    Member

    Thank you for your input. I will think carefully about what you said. I came on here asking for advice and I hope it didn't appear as though I didn't want it when I presented counter points.

    Thank you, also, to everyone else who's contributing, especially to those who have experience that I lack.
     
  20. wheelkid
    Joined: May 25, 2006
    Posts: 1,238

    wheelkid
    Alliance Vendor
    from Fresno, CA

    At the very least, don't use those wheels. Find some nice ones, I wouldn't trust that weld repair on the spokes
     

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