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No spark on 52 Ford 6 cylinder positive ground system

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by FoMoCoDude, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    Okay guys, I am at my wits end. I have a 1952 Ford Mainline, 6 cylinder, 6 volt, positive ground electrical system, with manual transmission. Positive cable to block/ground. I have swapped the coil, condenser, points and now can't get it to fire? Needless to say, I didn't take a picture of how it was hooked up before messing with it. Along the way, I also pulled the distributor, so timing may be screwed up. First things first though, I am not sure how the coil wires should be hooked up. I have read on here that positive lead on coil should go to bottom of distributor. Ignition wire should go to negative side of coil. I have one additional wire that I am not sure which side it should be hooked up to. When I test coil from + to - terminals, I get 5.94 volts. When I test + terminal to coil center wire, I also read 5..94 volts. However, when I try to get a spark by holding the distributor wire close to a ground, I get nothing. Same thing if I spin the motor by hand to open and close the points. Not sure what I am doing wrong at this point, but any advise would be much appreciated!

    Regarding timing, if I align the timing mark on balancer and block tab, and compression gauge starts to climb on #1 cylinder, then I assume I have TDC. when in that position, the rotor should point to the number 1 plug wire connection, is that correct?
     
  2. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 9,484

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

  3. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 9,484

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

  4. Jenz38
    Joined: Dec 21, 2010
    Posts: 81

    Jenz38
    Member

    Thats the wrong direction,
    Negative from the Coil are to the Dist and Positive on the Coil is Ignition +.
    The third Wire is maybe for the Start Resistor bridgeover (White ceramic Part on your Firewall ?), if you have one.
    Or if a Condenser is on it, then its for Radio Interference Elemination.
     

  5. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

  6. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    Thanks for the wiring diagram image. This may be a stupid question, but how do you tell the difference between the positive and negative posts on the coil in this diagram?


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  7. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    This holds true even on a positive ground car?


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  8. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    The wire to the distributor is always the ground. The points complete the circuit by grounding, all they are is a switch. They switch the power on and off.

    The wire to the coil is always live or power. In your case that will be -.

    So, you have a wire to the coil - that is power. Do you have power there? Good.

    You have a wire that goes from the coil + to the points. Do you have power there? Good.

    The points are supposed to switch the power on and off. Do they? You can check by using a test light and turning the engine over, or flicking the points open and closed.

    Every time the points open, you should get a spark from the coil. Do you? You can check this by sticking a spark plug on the coil wire and grounding it to the engine, or just hold the wire 1/4" or less from the engine.

    If you have spark at the coil is the rotor and the distributor cap clean? How about the plug wires? Put the cap and rotor on, connect the plugs and lay them on the engine. Do they all spark when you turn the engine over? You may need to clean the holes in the distributor cap where the wires go.

    You may have to clean and gap the plugs if they are dirty or gummed up with unburned oil and gas. The best way to clean them is with by sandblasting with a little spot blaster. If you do this blow them clean, inspect them carefully and pick out the bits of grit that get stuck down inside.

    OK if the plugs are clean and correctly gapped, and the ignition has passed all the other tests, you should have a good spark at all plugs.

    Now the only thing to do, is be sure the timing is right and that you put the wires on the correct plugs when you put the plugs back in. Don't laugh it is easy to mix them up. Go over them carefully according to your firing order, which should be on the intake manifold.

    If you have any more problems come back and tell us specifically which test failed.
     
  9. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    Thanks Rusty O'Toole! I am heading out to the garage now to troubleshoot. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me.
     
  10. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    Ok, here's the results of my tests this afternoon.

    Verified that ignition wire is getting power when the key is turned on, and the wire is connected to the - terminal on the coil.

    On the + terminal of the coil, I get 6 volts when no wires are hooked up to it. However, with the distributor wire hooked up to it, I get .38 volts when the points are in contact.

    I tried opening and closing the points while holding the primary coil wire next to the block and do not get a spark at all. I tested the old wire and a new wire and neither produced a spark.

    I also took the new coil out, and hooked up the old one, but with the same results.

    I verified that the wire from the + coil terminal goes to the bottom of the distributor. From there, a brass bolt connects to a wire inside the distributor, that is connected to the points and condenser. I verified that the points were also grounded by a grounding wire.

    Thoughts on what to troubleshoot next?
     
  11. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Are the points clean? Check voltage between the coil and points. Points open, should be 0 points closed should be 6v (more or less). In other words points closed, circuit grounded points open circuit open.

    Also check for grounding or open circuit between coil and ponts. Bare wire or frayed wire. The circuit should be insulated all the way to the movable point and ground thru the fixed point.

    You can also put a wire on the points side of the coil and tap it on the motor to ground it. Every time you break the circuit (take the wire off the motor) the coil should fire.

    The coil wire (the one that comes out of the middle) needs to ground in order to spark. Stick a spark plug wire in it and put a spark plug on, and ground the plug body to the motor. You should see a spark. Or just hold the wire near the motor.

    If the coil is getting power, and the circuit is making and breaking, and the coil doesn't have too big a gap to jump you should see a spark.

    Other questions - have you got a 6V coil? I'm reaching here. IF the circuit is complete, and it is making and breaking you should get sparks. Unless the coil is no good and what are the chances of having two no good coils, one of them new?
     
  12. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Could be a bad condenser too. The old wax paper and tinfoil condensers can wear out sitting on the shelf. They have a half life of about 15 years.
     
  13. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    Thanks for the responses. Will do some more tests as you indicated tomorrow.

    Regarding the coil, both the old and new are 6volt coils. I am assuming the old one is at least, the markings are worn off on it. The new one is also 6 volt, but I did notice that the sticker said no external resistor needed. Could that cause a problem?

    I already replaced the + coil wire to distributor with a new 10 gauge insulated wire, with new crimped ends on it. Fairly sure that the wire is not the problem, but will double-check everything again tomorrow.

    I did replace the condenser too, with a 6 volt condenser. Is it possible that I burnt it out by hooking up the coil wires wrong?
     
  14. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,214

    sunbeam
    Member

    With the switch on and points closed take a test light and touch the moveable part of the points you should have no light, open the points with the light probe the light should come on.
     
  15. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I don't know. Do the tests and find out what is what. If the electricity is going where it is supposed to go and the points are working correctly, and the coil is not firing I would suspect the coil or condenser.

    One time I had a 6V coil that would fire a spark plug if I stuck the plug wire in the coil for test purposes but would not fire if connected to the distributor. After checking the distributor cap and rotor I found the coil wire itself was faulty.

    This was a tricky one because someone put a spark intesifier in the coil wire, and for some reason it would fire once or twice then quit. In other words it tested good but would not start the car.

    Once I replaced the coil wire it purred like a kitten.

    The point is, you have to use your brains and common sense. The tests I told you about will help you narrow down the faulty area but I cannot tell you which part is not working or why. You have to reason it out for yourself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  16. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    No external resistance required. This may need a bit of explaining.

    When it is cold out batteries do not work too good, gas doesn't vaporize too good, the oil is stiff and the engine turns over hard. For all these reasons the starter can suck the voltage down from 6 to 4 or less.

    The poor coil can barely fire the gas.

    Some smart guy figured, let's put a 4 volt coil on and it will fire no matter how cold it is even if the battery is half dead.

    This worked great except, on a hot day running a full 6V the coil could get hot and burn out.

    So the next step was to put on a ballast resistor to cut the juice, and a wire to the starter to bypass the ballast resistor for starting.

    Now you know why some cars have a ballast resistor or resistor wire.

    Some clever coil designer figured out a way to do away with the ballast resistor. He invented a coil, whose resistance went up as it got hot. When it was dead cold it had low resistance and threw a hot spark. As it got hotter its resistance increased. It would only get so hot and no hotter.

    This is called an internal resistance coil. No external resistance required. That one you can connect right to power with no ballast resistor or resistor wire.

    Old VWs with Bosch ignition had these internal resistance coils but most American cars had resistors.
     
  17. simplyconnected
    Joined: Jun 5, 2009
    Posts: 64

    simplyconnected
    Member

    Let's start at the coil. Does it have a SOLID GROUND? That means, no rust or paint in the contact area (normally the band around a coil has a tit that 'digs into' the coil. Make sure it's clean. No ground means no spark.

    Put the wire from your key switch on the minus terminal. With NO wires on the POS terminal, simply use a straight piece of common stranded copper jumper wire, solidly connected to the body.

    As in tests before, use a spark plug wire with a spark in it with the plug laying on the engine's bare metal and the other end stuck inside the coil tower.

    TAP your jumper on the POS coil nut (get this right and don't ground the key switch wire). Every time you take the wire OFF, the spark plug should 'snap' with a pretty blue spark. If it doesn't spark, you got a bad coil. If the plug does spark, your problems are at the distributor.

    My understanding is (and I have a 55 Customline), 'internal resistor' distributors were ONLY used on 12-volt systems because 6-volt systems didn't need them. Ballast resistors are current-limiting resistors. They 'choke' the amount of current flowing to the coil, which is why they get so hot. Coils get hot too, from magnetism expanding and collapsing up to 40 times per second. Internal oil keeps the heat spread out.
    - Dave
     
  18. rotorwrench
    Joined: Apr 21, 2006
    Posts: 633

    rotorwrench
    Member

    An automotive coil is insulated from ground so it just needs to be secured somewhere. The OEM coils were marked DIS and BAT so you used to know how to connect them but not so much any more. Pos and Neg terminals depend on polarity of the electrical system ie Neg ground or Pos ground. Positive ground systems usually reverse the modern polarity indicators but not always. They make little coil polarity testers with a little viewing window so you can see which way the spark is going and connect the terminals the most efficient way. Your spark can suffer by 30% if polarity is off. You can use a graphite pencil lead too but I won't get into the procedure for that. 6-volt can type coils were designed so they didn't need a ballast resistor. The oil in them acts as a good insulator no matter how hot it gets unless there is an internal short in one of the primary coil windings. You can use a ballast resistor with a can type coil but it just decreases the output a bit and controls the amperage input. A 12-volt system can overamp a coil so it requires a ballast to control the amperage. It's either that or it has to be made of materials that can take the heat. A lot of coils now days have epoxy cores instead of oil so they can go without a ballast. The primary resistance is altered internally by the manufactures to work with specific voltages. The old can type 6-volt coil for a 52 Ford should read 1.05 to 1.15 OHMs at 75 degrees temp for the primary winding and 4100 OHMs on the secondary at the same temp if a person has a good volt/ohm meter.

    Condensers are just capacitors. In an AC system, they can manipulate circuits with capacitive reactance but this isn't an AC system. In a DC system, all it can do is build a charge and hopefully hold it between points openings and do it fast enough to keep the bell ringing in the coil. The points opening and closing stimulate a half wave pulsating DC current that will cause inductance in the coil. A coil won't work without this senario when used in a DC type circuit. When the points open the charge stored in the condenser gets kicked through the inductor coil and it steps that voltage from 6-volts to near 30,000-volts. When the points close the charge in the condenser builds again and this is the Dwell time or just dwell. If the condenser is leaking, the discharge will be irregular and the spark will be weak if much at all. The condenser is the least expensive part but also one of the most important parts of the ignition system. If it is going bad, the points will burn up quickly and the spark will be weak or non existent.

    Well made condensers are hard to find now days. NAPA is the best bet for a good one but no guarantee it will have the correct .21 to .25 mfd capacity. Better than 75% chance of quality spark with NAPA and less than 50% with other brands. I always buy two just in case one is crap. I also have a tester to check capacity and leakage but most folks don't have this kind of stuff.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  19. FoMoCoDude
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 27

    FoMoCoDude
    Member

    Well, thanks to all of the responses, I was able to isolate and solve my spark problem. Sheepishly, I have to admit it was my own mistake that caused the problem.

    I isolated the problem to the distributor by running a jumper wire (and temporarily disconnecting the other wire) from the + terminal on the coil to the points. With no other wire connected, I got a positive on my test light, and wallah, spark from the distributor!

    In short, the brass bolt that goes through the distributor was grounding to the distributor body. I discovered that there was a plastic insulator that surrounded the shaft, and unbeknownst to me until today, there was also a small plastic insulator that sat under the head of the brass bolt. The internal distributor wire then connected this brass bolt to the points. Apparently when I disassembled the distributor the first time around, I failed to notice, and replace, the insulator under the head of the brass bolt. I noticed on my more modern cars (late fifties, early sixties) that the wire went directly through the distributor body, which seems like a better design (which I am assuming Ford also realized at some point in the 50's?). So I ran a new wire from the points, through the distributor body and up to the coil. I still used the plastic insulator, and had some tiny o-rings that fit the wire snugly to seal the bottom of the distributor. I finished the rest of the tune-up, hit the key and she fired right up!

    Thanks for all of the advise guys. I learned a lot more about the ignition system that I knew previously. I appreciate the knowledge and experience that you all provided to me to help solve the problem. Hope I can return the favor, or help out someone else here someday.
     
  20. simplyconnected
    Joined: Jun 5, 2009
    Posts: 64

    simplyconnected
    Member

    My friend, you need to rethink this a few times. Do you know HV spark plug power returns to the coil via engine ground? (We aren't banging two plugs at once in a closed loop circuit.)

    Your explanation of a TANK CIRCUIT is good but there a few little tiny flaws. 30,000 volts is produced by a very rapidly collapsing field, which also induces a counter EFM back into the coil. Systems with ballast resistors will show ~35vdc on the POS post of the coil to ground (on a neg gnd sys). Systems without a ballast resistor, pass that CEMF voltage back into the car battery, making a car's electrical system VERY noisy.

    This is pulsating DC, which really IS AC, and it transforms quite well. The same technology was used in car radios with vibrators (before transistors were dreamed of). All of a sudden, 6-volts DC became 280-volts (or more) and the filter capacitor was rated over 1,000 volts between the rectifier tube and transformer. - Dave
     
  21. simplyconnected
    Joined: Jun 5, 2009
    Posts: 64

    simplyconnected
    Member

    Dude, I'm glad that worked for you and I'm glad you didn't spend money. The Ford ignition system is very basic but all the rules must be followed regarding insulation and tight connections.

    I once had a Pontiac that started running erratically. Turned out, the little 'points wire' in the distributor was too long, hitting the metal rotor throws above the points. As the metal throws turned they wore through the wire and grounded the coil (bypassing the points). Funny how things make sense after the problem is fixed. - Dave
     
  22. tonydennisadw
    Joined: May 2, 2015
    Posts: 1

    tonydennisadw

    now im totally confused have 2 52 fords both run pretty good but just noticed the ignition coils are wired exactly opposite of each other i purchased a www.classiccarwiring.com and it shows contrary to most of the forum i think,,,,, red plus wire goes to ignition first to the tem sender and the minus coil wire goes to the distributer thats how one car is hooked other is exact opposite so which is correct also earlier talked about a 3rd wire black know that is for the kickdown switch for a stick thanks dennis
     
  23. simplyconnected
    Joined: Jun 5, 2009
    Posts: 64

    simplyconnected
    Member

    I have seen these cars with batteries hooked up backwards and they ran that way for years. It was 'discovered' when the new battery was installed. Having said that, there really isn't much difference between pos and neg systems.
    I would connect the batt pos to gnd, and the neg to your starter relay. The starter relay feeds your ignition switch. Work from the ignition wire going to the coil (BATT) post, then connect the other coil post to your points.

    Now you know, if you kept your points open and you simply jumper 'engine ground' to the points side of your coil, as soon as you remove the jumper you will produce a spark. So, lay a spare spark plug and long wire on your valve cover and plug it into the coil tower to verify spark.

    When done, put a wad of paper in your #1 spark plug hole. Bump the starter until the paper flies out. Now #1 is in its power stroke so turn the crank to 6-degrees BTDC and lift your distributor cap. The rotor should point straight at #1 spark plug tower and not between towers. - Dave
     
  24. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    A coil will work wired backwards but not as well. You will get a better spark right way round.
     

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