History Auto racing 1894-1942

jimdillon · Oct 30, 2013

Bob Brad Skinner was a really good guy. He was collecting all sorts of Packard stuff and of course he purchased the 299 and a couple of the parts including an original radiator I believe he found at Hershey. Then he gathered all of the 23 stuff now at Zakiras. Not sure when he passed on. I corresponded with Brad, talked to him on the phone with our minor sleuthing and visited him and his wife Harriet (if my memory is still worth a hoot) at their home in Bartlesville Ok on a couple of occasions.

He had a real interest in the race car stuff and the pace cars. I believe the body work he found was possibly the pace car bodywork.

The Dick Merritt find was I am quite sure was the Miller four now in Buck Boudeman's Sub. Brad was not associated with that -Jim

Weaverville Studios · Oct 29, 2013

That is FANTASTIC news to read that the surviving Indy Packard is going to restored by Zakiras...fandango!!

The37Kid · Oct 30, 2013

Thanks for correcting things Jim! I think I may have some Packard photos around here somewere. Bob

Joshua Shaw · Oct 30, 2013

Jim Dillon, THANK YOU! Your call really helped, and your pictures you sent are great!

All and any help you guys send will be greatly appreciated. As many of you may know, and some maybe not.. We here at Zakira's are specialist in saving, rebuilding, and re-creating ONE OFF racing engines and Miller Race cars. We have patterns made, castings, and build engines completely from scratch. The Packard Indy engine is in the right place!! ...and helpful info from you all, and Jim Dillon will be vital in this engine making noise again!

I'll post build pics, and someday in the future I'll post video of it on the DYNO!

Thanks,

Joshua Shaw

jimdillon · Oct 30, 2013

Josh, it was good talking to you and Jim. Thanks for the kudos but whatever role I can play is the easy stuff. You guys have the tough job although I am sure it will be a measure of fun. All of the rest of us will benefit from your expertise and will be rewarded just hearing the old girl come back to life. I have had my 299 Packard engine running and its sound is incredible. I cant wait to hear the little 122 inch Packard roar. Emailed and regular mailed you some stuff. Hope it helps-Jim

Mac the Yankee · Oct 30, 2013

Jim,

Would you have any video of your 299 running, so we could enjoy that sound ?

jimdillon · Oct 30, 2013

No I do not although I have heard that there is an audio out there of it running. I tried to get a copy years ago but no success. They had the engine in the pits at Indy back in 1969 I believe and at that time it was set up in a trailer that you could start the engine. It was so hard to move that stupid trailer around and it took too much space in my shop. I gave the trailer to a friend and he used it to haul his quad to Glammis (sp?) when I lived in SoCal.

I set the egine up in my shop and used to start it for my friends here and there. I used to think then that why get an audio or video all I have to do is go start it and hear it run. I guess I was a little short-sighted. Then I removed the starting mechanism and figured I would get it running again shortly but time gets away from you. My home shop is really full so I recently made some space for the 299 stuff and then all of a sudden I parked an old 61 drag car in the spot. I hope to set it back up in the next year so I will get it running again. I have guys that want to video when it happens. I keep telling myself that patience is a virtue.-Jim

noboD · Oct 30, 2013

Well Jim, here's a goal for you. I'll be in your neighborhood from June 22-27 next year, and I want to see it run.

guffey · Oct 30, 2013

I wonder if anyone has any insight into this body. It is probably a little new for this thread sorry. The guy had it for nearly 50 years.

jimdillon · Oct 30, 2013

Doug my plan was to get the engine in the chassis, fabricate some headers and then reinstall the start mechanism (technical term mind you for a VW starter attached to a bellhousing). I fabricated a frame although I am not happy with the forward portion so I may have to redo it. I built a frame table that I was quite proud of but apparently some thieves liked it for scrap as it was sitting outside my shop. The thing that added to my anger is that the thieves went in my car trailer and stole a whole container with my ratchet straps so they could strap it down on the way to the scrap yard apparently. They also stole two body jigs, my aluminum ladders and two aluminum picks and various other pieces of "scrap". I live in the country and thought it was safe-how silly of me. It kind of took the wind out of my sails and now I have to make another setup to finish the frame. I have a long laundry list to accomplish this winter and will put my best dent in the list.

It is not a simple deal to just put the engine on a stand as it is a bit heavy. I had to build a heavy duty arm for my engine hoist just to lift it without bending the original arm (again).

I have run out of shop space and just the other day had a four post lift installed to make some more room. I cleaned out one bay strictly for the 299 (kind of a kick in my behind to get going) but then my 61 Vette drag car was looking for a spot and took the open spot. That is only temporary. Hopefully the 299 will be residing in that spot when you arrive and with any luck I may even be making some progress. I keep telling myself it is next on the list.

When you get in town let me know and will show you how much progress I am making.-Jim

noboD · Oct 30, 2013

10-4 Jim, we'll be at the Hilton in Auburn Hills. I know about lists of things to do. BWT dont' build a new shop, add onto what you have. I built a new storage building and everything I need is in the OTHER shop.

ZigZagZ · Nov 2, 2013

T-Head said: ↑

They Say a Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Click to expand...

Great stuff. I was in both Detroit & Indy last month. I spent most of my time at the library, but did manage to do a little site seeing.

The Packard Plant looks like something out of Berlin circa 1945. Holy Cow!

Old Dawg · Nov 3, 2013

gearguy said: ↑

The Mallory Special is EXACTLY what we have in mind. It looks like only a few stock blocks made the show but plenty of them tried.

A visit to the Speedway photo office is planned and I'll see what I can learn about the Mallory Special.

I've been following the build thread for the 300" Ford I-6 powered car. Nice work.
Click to expand...

A guy can buy, build and drive what he wants... However, if you are building a "replica", that is (in my view) what it should be. With respect to the Mallory Special, I believe that car, as pictured was a front wheel drive, including a Miller engine. You can build or buy Miller "repop" components to make a "replica"; but at what price? I don't think the Mallory Special, though run in the "Junk Formula" era, qualifies as a "Junk Car", in the true sense of the word.

Now...If you are talking about Chrysler, Cummins, Ford, Hudson, or Studebaker Indy cars; you are talking about the essence of the "Junk Formula". Below are photos of examples. You make the judgement of which are real and which are replicas.

The37Kid · Nov 3, 2013

Tiny Gould had this car at one time, last I knew it was in England, were is it today? Bob

banjeaux bob · Nov 3, 2013

I have seen pictures of it recently somewhere over there.Either in England or on the continent.Perhaps at Vintage Revival Montlhery 2013.

gearguy · Nov 3, 2013

I haven't been to the Speedway Museum to check yet but everything I can find in print says the Hudson Special was a rear wheel drive chassis [Ringling?] with a highly modified Hudson motor. We'll try to use period correct components but because of our very low budget it won't have a period correct motor. Only "period" piece we could afford is a GMC or Chevy 6 because of their long production run.

Old Dawg · Nov 3, 2013

The frame of my race car is that of a 1928/1929 Essex (a product of the Hudson Motor Company). Note how much deeper are the frame rails of the Hudson.

My frame, of course is shortened an narrowed, withe the front rains bent inward and welded.

Old Dawg · Nov 3, 2013

How about a Buick? The big straiight 8's are around; and not expensive.
Here's one, owned by Corky Coker, built by a neighbor of mine, Mel Toll.

And, below is the real one built by Red Shafer..

The frame rails are a challenge (as they would be on any replica); but, with a well made pattern and jig, they can be hammered out.
I think that qualifies as a Replica! It just takes thought, work and craftsmanship.

banjeaux bob · Nov 3, 2013

Voisin C6 - 1923 Image via Jean-Jacques

The37Kid · Nov 3, 2013

The Shafer 8 Buick had a great run as a Vintage Racer with a HAMB member as driver/mechanic, the car is in Swizerland now. You'll need a 1933 Pontiac grill, and a few sheets of aluminum, and a skilled bodyman to build a clone of one of the nicest twoman cars. Bob

gearguy · Nov 4, 2013

There are several Buick powered Junk Era cars around, both restorations and replicas. We'd prefer to do something different out of respect for those car owners/builders. I recall hearing of a meet some years back where the original car arrived to find a "tribute" car getting all the attention. The caretaker wasn't pleased. How many replicas of the same car does the world need? Given the lack of serial numbers you have to wonder about fraud in the years down the road.
Our "concept" is to build something a group of young men would have created in the corner garage/salvage yard circa 1936/37. May they didn't quite complete it before the formula changed.

Thanks for the input, guys. Very thought provoking.

Chuck Schultz
Winfield, Illinois

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER · Nov 4, 2013

It looks like they went a little overkill on rear crossmembers. Nevertheless, it is a beautiful looking frame that would look good on either a racer or a highboy coupe / roadster.

ago · Nov 4, 2013

Would the Essex chassis under the race car Narrowed? Or was that a complete special frame?

Ago

banjeaux bob · Nov 4, 2013

Stutz

SteveLines · Nov 4, 2013

Joshua Shaw said: ↑

Hello fella's! Looking good as always.

------------------------------------------

I'm sure you guys have discussed the PACKARD INDY CARS of 1923.

I have mentioned at different times that there only remains parts to one of the 3 cars built, and that they were on shelves awaiting restoration in the PACKARD museum in Dayton Ohio.

Well, the time has finally come! and the ol' girl is getting restored!

We at Zakira's have been entrusted with restoring the Engine.

-----------------------------------------------

My question to you all is:

Lets see hwat you know, what pictures you have, and stories to tell!

Of the 3 cars built Ralph DePalma drove chassis #3. THAT is the car that survives. We have found numerous #3's stamped in the parts!

BUT... I'd like to see pics of all Three as they were the same.

ANY ENGINE PICS would be GREAT!!!

Here are a few shots to get ya going.. as well as whats left of the engine.

Thanks guys, ANY HELP and details will be greatly accepted.

Joshua Shaw

-----------------
Click to expand...

Good luck with this wonderful project

Would it be possible to hear about the rebuild of the rest of the car also please? I guess this is being handled by the Packard Museum?

Old Dawg · Nov 4, 2013

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER said: ↑

It looks like they went a little overkill on rear crossmembers. Nevertheless, it is a beautiful looking frame that would look good on either a racer or a highboy coupe / roadster.
Click to expand...

I wish whoever originally modified the Essex frame of mine, had left some of that structure in the aft part, alone. I can feel, in my posterior, that rear part of the frame, moving around. As a matter of fact, tomorrow my car is going to be dropped of at one of my buddies shop to have, amongst others, that problem addressed.

The article of Old Motor is not only interesting; but, to me, very valuable...
Thanks a bunch!!

Old Dawg · Nov 4, 2013

gearguy said: ↑

There are several Buick powered Junk Era cars around, both restorations and replicas. We'd prefer to do something different out of respect for those car owners/builders. I recall hearing of a meet some years back where the original car arrived to find a "tribute" car getting all the attention. The caretaker wasn't pleased. How many replicas of the same car does the world need? Given the lack of serial numbers you have to wonder about fraud in the years down the road.
Our "concept" is to build something a group of young men would have created in the corner garage/salvage yard circa 1936/37. May they didn't quite complete it before the formula changed.

Thanks for the input, guys. Very thought provoking.

Chuck Schultz
Winfield, Illinois
Click to expand...

The term "fraud", is something that has, in this last decade or two, interested me. Specifically, the number of "Millers" that have appeared, replete with provenance, which have been bought at auction for big bucks (some in the millions)... I think it might mean that there are still a number of turnip trucks on the highways and byways, full of "rubes", with buckets of money falling off of them.

It's not that these cars aren't superb replicas. Many are GREAT, down to the last rivet. And, they should be constructed (as most are) to represent what was done 80 and 90 years ago. They should demand a big price, as many are art in and of themselves; but, I'm not too sure it should be in the millions.

Just my two cents!

Joshua Shaw · Nov 5, 2013

SteveLines said: ↑

..... rest of the car also please? I guess this is being handled by the Packard Museum?
Click to expand...

No, The Packard Museum in Dayton Ohio doesn't do ANY work on their vehicles any more. They are completely set up for it with a full SHOP and restoration area, but at present time there is NO employee's for restoration work.

D&D restorations in Ohio is doing the rest of the car. I'll post what ever pics of the entire restoration I get.

Thanks!

J Shaw

Bluto · Nov 5, 2013

Only Bugatti fakes are worth millions

Or maybe Rabbit

Rootie Kazoootie · Nov 5, 2013

Wilbur's 'day at the beach'

History Auto racing 1894-1942

jimdillon Member from Highland, Michigan

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Joshua Shaw Member from Cincinnasty Ohio

jimdillon Member from Highland, Michigan

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