Register now to get rid of these ads!

Help, Noisy flathead is driving me nuts!!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tudorfritz, Oct 3, 2013.

  1. Two years ago I had the motor rebuilt in my Shoebox by a reputable local flathead guy. As soon as I fired it up for the first time I head what sounded like a lifter ticking. I pulled the intake and checked the lash on all the valves. They were all within spec (.014) as per Iski spec on a 77b cam. The noise is louder when it's cold but still there when hot. Strange thing is sometimes it will get real loud and then it will just quiet down all if a sudden. One time while driving it got real noisy and I revved it up a few times and it quieted down. I had the intake off three times so far checking the lash and it always good. I took the car to the engine builder when I first got it going. He is a hour away and by the time I got there it was not ticking very loud. He said it "sounded like a good running flathead". I kind of got the hint he was saying get lost or he thought I was just a pain in the ass. I put my stethoscope on the header pipes, it sounds the loudest on the front pipe on the drivers side. The other day when it was ticking away I dumped a 1/2 a quart of oil in the motor while it was running. As soon as I did that it stopped ticking completely, until the oil drained down into the pan then it came back. It has good oil pressure all the time, and runs great otherwise. I did a compression check, it has 120 psi on all cylinders. I just at a loss as to what to check for now, if any one has any suggestions I'm all ears.
    http://youtu.be/MPE7raNGFc0
    This is when it's real noisy. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380820272.611557.jpg



    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  2. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member

    take it back to the builder and demand he find the problem... you paid good money to have him build it... make him make it right
     
  3. stimpy
    Joined: Apr 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,546

    stimpy

    man is that loud ... sounds like a continental I worked on that the valve was hitting the head because of a weak set of springs
     
  4. I was thinking that too. I rolled the motor over till the lifter was all the way up. I then took my spring compressor and pushed the valve up till it stopped. The spring did not completely compress/ bottom out before the valve stopped. But I would say it would only move up around .030 past the point the lifter is at its highest point. Seems like if that was the case it would be the noisiest at high rpm's. if you watch the video it doesn't get louder up around 3k rpm.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     

  5. I emailed him the video. Just waiting for a response from him. It's almost cant stand to drive it because it sounds so shitty. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380823440.618494.jpg


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  6. stimpy
    Joined: Apr 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,546

    stimpy

    the flatheads I worked on were industrial , some times a tight valve would do that to as it would stick in the guide and then slam back home but it would have a delayed sound to it ( kind of hard to describe without hearing it ) and it would sometimes pop like a partial backfire , but you would see the scuffing on the sides of the valve stem were it was sticking . another thing too is I seen lifters stick in there bores do this also . as they wouldn't rotate like they are supposed to and would lead to flatlobing or concaving the lifter base .
     
  7. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,485

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

    Any chance it's fuel pump related?
     
  8. I pried up on all the valves and checked to see if the lifters were binding. Everything seems to be free with no binding. Also no backfire sounds and it idles smooth. I also put a electric fuel pump on it to eliminate the pushrod, but that didn't do anything as far as the noise.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  9. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,485

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

  10. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Sorry about that ticking. The video says it all.

    I hate to say this (I really do) but why in the world would you wait two years to complain about noise after a rebuild? Are you expecting the shop to be sympathetic/responsible after two years?

    The only things that come to mind is that maybe they used the wrong length valves or there is failure in the oil distribution somewhere.
     
  11. I took the car to him right after I got it going. That's when he told me it sounded good. Just recently it has gotten really loud like in the video.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  12. I'm not looking for sympathy or to hold him responsible two years later. That's why I came on here looking for suggestions on what it could be. I know I fucked up and should have been all over him about it but I didn't. How would I go about seeing if the valves are too long? I know he put stainless valves in it , no clue what ones or size. And that link to the other thread sounds just like my situation. Guess ill pull the heads and valves to look at the cam.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  13. ronnieroadster
    Joined: Sep 9, 2004
    Posts: 1,069

    ronnieroadster
    Member

    Having built a few flatheads heres my thoughts.
    Something I noticed in the picture the valve springs on the intake valves are not the same as the ones on the exhaust. The springs on the exhaust should not be used on a higher than stock lifting cam that type of spring will end up in coil bind. The springs used on the intake valves look sort of correct but its possible they are only the stock spring which has very low seat pressure. The proper spring for all the valves would be at least the Zephyr springs.
    You mentioned you have maybe only about .030 movement before the valve stops moving that also is not good the clearance should be more than double that. As the top of the valves become covered by carbon you will begin getting a knock as the top of the valve touches the head under load. Seems to me the valve train needs some attention once the proper parts are installed you should be fine.
     
  14. Fullraceflathead
    Joined: Apr 27, 2012
    Posts: 23

    Fullraceflathead
    Member

    I've had that happen before. What you are hearing is the valve sticking open then slamming shut. I was trying to run out the last few gallons of some old Gas, being lazy instead of siphoning the gas out and replacing with fresh gas.
    This is one the main reasons NOT to use old gas. In a overhead valve engine the valve will hang open and get hit by the piston. Be thankful yours is a flathead. Under load you should be able to feel the engine missing along with the valve noise.
    It's hard to dump old gas with the price of it now a days but if it's over 6 months old it's only good for "Weed Killer".
     
  15. I noticed that the springs were different.
    He said he was gonna reuse the original springs. I don't think the valves are sticking, because it runs smooth and the compression check out good. I think my next step will be to pull a head to see if the valves are hitting.






    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  16. Just pulled the left head, lot of carbon on the front and rear cylinder. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380848647.947833.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380848663.747416.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380848679.271792.jpg


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  17. ronnieroadster
    Joined: Sep 9, 2004
    Posts: 1,069

    ronnieroadster
    Member

    From the head picture it looks like the intake valve in the front cylinder is hitting the head. When using a higher than stock lift cam I find there is not enough clearance in valve pockets of the stock Ford heads. Looks like the engine builder did not check for proper clearances. If the block deck and heads were resurfaced during the rebuild the clearance over the valve is now way to small making matters worse.
     
  18. I put some clay on the valves on the front cylinder. Getting about .090 at the thinnest point. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380850639.300152.jpg


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  19. neb-rivet
    Joined: Mar 25, 2012
    Posts: 69

    neb-rivet
    Member
    from Nebraska

    You say you removed the mechanical pump and push rod. This leave a large oil passage open to dump back to the pan. Is you oil pressure good with the engine above idle but about zero at idle? I did this once and wiped out a set of main bearings. The fix is to install a soft plug in the hole the pump push rod was in. This keeps the oil contained in the gallery from the pump to the feeds for the bearings.
     
  20. I made a plate that goes under the stock pump. I shortened a pushrod so it does not touch the cam lobe then welded it to the plate. I researched it before I put the electric pump on. This way if the electric pump takes a shit I can pull the plate out and stick the original pushrod back in. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1380852089.928097.jpg


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  21. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,485

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

    That's a lot of funky deposits in that one hole, sucking oil? If it's two on each side it could just be a carb issue. Might want to roll it through once and see if everything moves right, valves going up same amount and then pull the two valves on the weird cylinder to check for odd wear.
     
  22. Yea, I was a little shocked when I saw that crud in there. I spun it around a few times and everything seems to move fine, nothing sticking. I'm gonna pull all the valves out and check them all plus the cam and lifters. I'm thinking the carbon came from a few factors. First I had a Pcv stuck in the intake where the road draft tube went. The hole is un baffled and is sucking a little oil. I probably should start running better gas too not just 87 octane. I think the carbon build up could be the cause of the real loud ticking that would come and go. But there is still a smaller ticking that was there when I fired it up for the first time when there was no carbon in it. I appreciate all the help / tips I'm getting here, keep it coming guys.




    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  23. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,875

    Larry T
    Member

    Looks like some valves are getting awfully close to the head on the second and maybe on the fourth cylinder in the picture of the head you posted.
     
  24. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    A "quick-check" method for checking V/H clearance is done by installing the head on the respective deck WITHOUT any gasket and turn the crank over by hand. This will not give an exact dimension (clearance), but it should show any interference.

    Leave 2 bolts in place to align the head, but do not tighten them. (Our Flathead builds here now get the heads dowel pinned to align them in the same location at all times)

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. This method is NOT good for checking "radial" valve clearances, but this shouldn't present any issue for the conventional 1.500" valves? This is important only with 1.600" or larger valves!
     
  25. Thanks Gary, what is a good clearance spec for the valve to head? If it is too tight is it ok for me to machine some material off the head for a fix? I do have a small mill I could mount it in to do it.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  26. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Hi 'fritz", if the unit turns over with no gasket you have plenty of room. Seeing as how there are no pushrods/rockers to deal with I would say .025" V/H in any Flathead would be acceptible.

    You could clearance the heads, it will not hurt at all. Just don't go "crazy", every little bit removed lowers the C.R. some.

    (Add) There is a way to determine reasonably close how much room is present. It would require a couple spring shims (a .015" and a .030") the same diameter as the valve head (1.500"). You would place the .030" shim directly on the valve face, held in place with some white lube, and repeat the above procedure with R&R'ing the head. If the unit still turns you're really good (still no head gasket), if not try the .015", same procedure. You will have a "general" idea how much room you have in there. This method would also allow a comfortable decision with respect to the amount of milling you would be able to do if necessary in the future.

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. Also remember, the valves are at .004*/.005* angle on the deck surface, they aren't "parallel". We do a number of "flycutting" pockets for the V/H clearances. Mostly for larger valves or higher lifts. I put a shot here below! (You can also see the fire-slotting for the spark plugs)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  27. Thanks for the info Gary. I will try that as soon as I get back home on Sunday ( camping with the family now). Nice work on those heads. If I ever need another rebuild think I'll come see you. Thanks again. Scott Fritz


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  28. 1949*john
    Joined: Jul 27, 2010
    Posts: 57

    1949*john
    Member

    wrist pins ? at 3000 rpm's the pistons are jumping up and down 50 times a second
     
  29. DS1937
    Joined: May 3, 2013
    Posts: 43

    DS1937
    Member

    It seems like all the likely culprits were mentioned. The only other thing that I would check while it's apart is the lifter to lifter bore clearance. I you have a worn out bore, there is no telling when the noise will come & go since eithe the bore or the lifter is no longer round and the clearance will vary as it rotates. They can be sleeved but it's kind of a major deal! Good luck.
     
  30. stimpy
    Joined: Apr 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,546

    stimpy

    I would check the pistons to see if there is pits in it , that looks alot like detonation ( clean area in the middle when it should be carbon covered ) when it occurs , if there is pits and the pistons were new , then you found your problem as motor oil vapor will kill octane and theses motors run a hot cylinder head which makes them more prone to problems like this . wouldn't be unussual for one cylinder to do it if the carbon got hot and was glowing .
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.