pertronix failed again!! any suggestions?

Which "factory electronic system" came in a 1941 Plymouth six cylinder flathead?

 

I think he mentioned he had a slant six, so an electronic distributor would be available. Even if not, I've seen the Chrysler pickup and reluctor installed on several different types of early distributors. Either way, it would be hard to beat an OEM GM or Chrysler style control box to trigger it.

 

We installed one on a SBC that had a generator and we blew the first one. After changing over to an alternator we had no problems on the replacement. Had generator tested and it was not producing a constant voltage.

 

"the pertronix in my slant six 41 plymee"

From the opening post, but Don, you might be right, its scary how a lot of HAMBers think ANY Mopar six is a "slant" six. Sounds ridiculous, but maybe the OP should clarify that he DOES actually have a slant six. I for one, am operating on the assumption that the OP does in fact know what a slant six is, with the way things are on here lately, that may be taking a leap of faith that isnt justified.

 

i had a pertronics unit in my 218 dodge for years with no failure ever. there are two things to look at. first how are the wires coming out of the dist. any chance they are getting pinched. second thing a six volt unit will work in a twelve volt application. and a twelve volt unit will burn up in a six volt application. when i sold the truck the new owner wanted a twelve volt update. when i went to order it i was told i didnt need to change it. one other thing call them direct on what coil to use. dont just follow the instructions.

 

i have checked everything per the correspondence with patrick of pertronix. grounds, power ,,plug wire resistance, coil wire resistance.
as for the coil, mine has 1.8 ohms. they say anything over .6 ohms is acceptable.
i am going to send the failed module back, and have them disect it as they offered.in the meantime, i installed a set of premium points and condenser so i can finish out the summer.

 

Hi guys, this is Patrick from PerTronix that Chuck was referring to.

I will be inspecting Chuck’s module and I will go ahead and share my findings here. I expect that I will find that it is still an RFI noise issue. Chuck has done all of the usual power/ground/voltage checks and he has a lot of experience with auto electrical so I think everything is in order there. Even though he is running suppression wires, every once in a while we come across a car that generates RFI from other places. SMOG_GUY and gearhead1952 posted some great info on this topic earlier in the thread. In these rare cases, I recommend switching to a regular Ignitor module. It does not have all of the features of the Ignitor II or Ignitor III, but it is very resistant to RFI.

By the way, we test each module that we sell, and we also test each return that comes in. I get all of the data and I can tell you that even out of our small amount of returns, there are very few actual failures. I mean like VERY few. The reason for this is that we design, build, test, package, ship, and service our products right here in San Dimas California just like we have been doing for decades.

Anyone who has worked on a classic car electrical system will probably agree that even seemingly simple circuits can be hard to troubleshoot. We understand this and that is why we maintain a well-trained tech department (also right here in San Dimas Ca.). These guys are available 5 day a week and they have seen about every possible situation. They can sort out almost any installation problem and they can handle warranty and returns as well. So don’t hesitate to call. You can find all the info at PerTronix.com.

 

in reply to falcongeorge:::
and you think i don't know what a slant six is??
what the hell do you think i have been doing for the past 45 years? playing with dolls.
boy what a stupid comment.

 

x2 regarding the spark plug wires- you don't want to run the pertronix with solid core wires.
I fried the one on my flathead and it was taken care of by pertronix, no problem, they were great. But I think it was my fault. I was running solid core wires.. By the time I got the new pertronix, I replaced the coil and wires with their stuff. Works great now. They really did me a good turn. I would recommend them in a second.

 

Very cool to see the guys from pertronix here on the HAMB,welcome and the last time I had issue was back in 91 and they were under lifetime warranty. Had one fail in a forklift but the other 74 didn't miss a beat.

 

i recieved an email from patrick of pertronix explaining why rfi causes module failures. thought i would share it here. they have been great in helping me locate the reason for my module failures.
guess i need to see if i can track down a rfi problem on the old plymee.

Hi Chuck,



RFI is a tricky thing. The source is usually a voltage spike, caused by a discontinuity in an electrical circuit. A discontinuity is anything that abruptly changes the current flow, like a DC motor commutator, or a switched relay. Ignition systems are the worst because they cause a big voltage to build up across a gap (spark plug) and then jump the gap causing a spark and a very large, very short flow of current. The energy in the circuit has to go somewhere and so it converts into heat, noise, and a pulse of electromagnetic energy (which travels through the air). The heat is good, the electromagnetic pulse is not. What the electromagnetic pulse does is induce a current into any conductive material it passes through. It is not a huge amount of current, barely measurable in, say an 18 gauge wire, but on the unbelievably small conducting surfaces that are doped into a Silicon chip, a strong electromagnetic pulse can disrupt a logic circuit causing a confused microcontroller, or worse, they can even damage such a circuit.



Any properly designed circuit has components that handle changes in the flow of current and thus greatly reduce the electromagnetic pulses (also called, “Radio Frequency Interference” or RFI) that are generated. Points ignitions have a condenser that “catches” the current, Relays, voltage regulators, and our Ignitor modules have flyback diodes that loop extra current until is dissipates, and DC motors have capacitors that smooth out the transition of current from one winding to the next. On the secondary side of the ignition system, resistance in the wires and spark plugs keep the super-high current from occurring anywhere other than at the spark gap. Unfortunately, when things like condensers or flyback diodes fail, they usually do not make the circuit fail, they just allow the rest of the circuit to create a bunch of RFI. So you could be driving for years with a noisy voltage regulator or a slight crack in a spark plug and wondering why you never get good radio reception and keep blowing up ignition modules.



Sorry, I get long winded, but in summary, The RFI created by the secondary side of the ignition system or some other source is transmitted through the air (and to some degree through the chassis) and it is induced into all surrounding circuits, including the ignition module on the primary side. If the RFI is powerful enough, it can confuse and/or damage semiconductor devices in its field.

 

This would be my solution as well. The only thing I have ever had fail with this system in 30 some years is the ballast resistor, carry a spare.

 

Mopar Electronic Ignition.

 

I put a Pertronix module and coil in my 62 wagon with a 283 and had a noticeable improvement in how it runs, and a little improvement in how it starts ( which I think will improve with some additional tuning and plug gapping).

I'm not too concerned about availability and many of the major auto stores stock them, and if not can get them overnight.

But as a safeguard, and to preserve my original distributor I bought a new replacement distributor for $35 over the counter and installed the Pertronix kit in it and then swapped the complete distributor.

I should add I've had GM, Chrysler, and Honda module fail in my hot rods, and daily drivers. Underhood and on-engine environments are really hard on electronics.

 

Been using Pertronix conversions in all my flathead projects. Each time I talked to Pertronix tech I received great info and guidance good stuff from good people including Patrick.
Heck my little old flathead V-8 has run over 172 MPH in one mile using a simple Pertronix conversion.

 

I have two setting on the shelf. Was using per-tronics in my 66 vette. Didn't understand why the PO had a point set in the jockey box ,but found out. Over 100 degree heat in So Cal & it just quit soo had a chevy garage replace it & they ripped me good. We continued on the trip to Crescent city Cal & parked the car in the garage. Much later after not driving it & no battery tender the battery would hardly turn it over but got it started & moved it outside to let it run a bit to put some charge back in the battery.
Well it died & I didn't catch it but later the wife screams your car is on fire. The sick stinky smoke was pour out from under the hood. I lfted the hood only to find the per-tronic smoking badly. That was a close call. Yes they replaced the unit twice & both are on the shelf in the shop. I ain't waitin for the 3rd time.

 

One thing that I find disheartening is the acknowledgement that RFI can damage their stuff. I would have expected shielding to protect from that happening.

 

Put the points back in and run a MSD6 box to a coil.

 

I won't BS PerTronix customers and tell them that our modules are indestructible, but I would argue that our modules are AT LEAST as tolerant to RFI as anybody else, including factory ignition modules. Here's why: OEM designers put resistance wires into cars long before they designed electronic ignition modules. As a result, the Mopar ignition or an HEI module will fail quick with solid wires. We use the best rated micro controller in terms of heat and industrial reliability (things like RFI tolerance, voltage spike immunity, etc.) and we also include input and output protection circuits so that Ignitor modules can survive in the most taxing of engine bays. The Ignitor II and III even do a self test when they start up to make sure they are not wired in backward. So I say again, nothing is indestructible, but we stand behind our product as the best out there.

 

Now I have to speak up on this subject. I have a PerTronix unit in my Falcon. It has been in there for at least 15 years with no problems! I also have one in my Roadster, SBF. Both units have PerTronix wires and coils. I have 18K miles on my Roadster with no Problems hot or cold weather.
I am guessing maybe the OP has a grounding problem as many of us forget to ground the engine to the frame.
Anyway I hope it all works out for the OP!!

 

So, I said I would post the results when I tested Chuck's module. Here is the message I sent him:

Good Morning Chuck,

I received the Ignitor II kit you sent. It is indeed failed, consistent with what I have seen with RFI issues in the past. I would like to replace it with a standard Ignitor kit which should not be affected by any possible RFI. Because we recommend a 3 Ohm coil with the Ignitor kit on 6cyl applications, and since your Ignitor II kit was a more expensive than the matching Ignitor kit, I would like to send you one of our 3 Ohm coils as well. Please let me know if that will be acceptable.

The Ignitor kit should be a good fix for your system, but I do think you should look into a possible RFI issue on your car. It could be coming from a generator, regulator, starter, fan motor bad spark plug, etc. One way to track down noise is to get a portable AM radio with headphones (so you can hear it with the engine running). Tune it to a frequency where no station is broadcasting and set the volume up high. Move it around the engine bay with the engine running (be careful not to catch on anything). If there is something generating noise, the AM radio will pick it up as a static sound. It will get louder as you get closer to the source.

Thanks,
Patrick

 

How would you know if your pertronix is going bad?,my sedan acted as thought it was running out of gas last week,picked up and ran well and started again I headed back home,,it did this about three times.

I have a new carburetor and there is pleanty of gas.

 

Have PERTRONIX in 2 hotrods, Worked for over 60K mi.in one 43k mi in other. As for points,well some people still watch black & white tv

 

That's pretty damn good customer service in my mind.

 

Points to DubP for his openness and customer service.

 

I do road racing. I have seen lots of broken pertronics units in the past. You can tell it because the guy with the failed unit is walking around the pits holding it by wire like a dead rat. You also know that he was the one misfiring badly going down the track just before being towed in. Most guys learn to either have a bunch of spares or go to another type of ignition. Most have gone to another brand and move on...which is why I don't see many broken pertronics now...I do see some guys with a broken unit hanging in the trailer as a offering to the god of speed.
If the problem is RFI then maybe pertronics should shield there stuff better. There is a lot of RFI around racecars.