taxable horsepower

dan c · Aug 19, 2013

this may be a minor beef, but it's bugged me for a long time. here in missouri, the cost of license plates is based on taxable horsepower. i've had four shoebox fords with flatheads (32.5 taxable h.p.), and when i go for plates, the geniuses at the license bureau inform me that all v-8s have 50 h.p. and i wind up paying the same as a 500 caddy! i finally convinced them by bringing in my "green bible," which shows taxable hp back in the spec section. i also sourced wikipedia's "tax horsepower" page, which gives this formula: h.p. = DxD x n divided by 2.5. "D" is the engine bore (in my case 3.1875), and "n" is the number of cylinders (8). hope this is of help!

treb11 · Aug 19, 2013

Just when I thought i've heard of all the flucking stupid goverment money robbing B.S. here's another one.

so if I have one of those switchable V8 / V4 setups, which is taxed?

62nova · Aug 19, 2013

I'll put Missouri on my "Don't move there" list.

TennesseeZ · Aug 19, 2013

And we actually elect these people again and again.

porknbeaner · Aug 19, 2013

I wasn't aware that good ol Missouri even used taxable horse power for the price of tags any more. Hmmmmn.

Rusty O'Toole · Aug 19, 2013

Up until the sixties they used taxable HP here too. Then they changed to number of cylinders.

The taxable HP formula was invented around 1904 and at that time it was fairly accurate. It was used in racing for a while but soon became outdated as engines became more powerful.

I guess they wanted some kind of yardstick so the Ford Model T owner did not pay as much tax as the Cadillac owner. At least it had the merit of being easy to calculate, and you knew where you were tax wise.

England had very high taxes or license fees on cars, and the HP formula inhibited engine design. They smartened up and dropped the HP formula in 1947.

I'm surprised anybody is still using this method of taxing HP, now 100 years out of date.

mike in tucson · Aug 19, 2013

Taxable horsepower is why British cars had salt shaker sized pistons and Looooong strokes...the formula use the bore dia only, not the stroke.

Wowcars · Aug 19, 2013

I've never even HEARD of "taxable horsepower" Damn glad MN doesn't have that.

arkiehotrods · Aug 19, 2013

Here's the Missouri taxable horsepower fee chart. People in Oklahoma would love to pay that little for their tags.

http://dor.mo.gov/motorv/fees.php

fourspeedwagon · Aug 19, 2013

That's interesting. Here in WA, they use a weight rating but the girl at the courthouse was able to modify the rating and drop down the charge.
We also have a "parks fee" that they add on unless you instruct them that you don't want to pay it. Otherwise it's tacked on silently.

Posted from my office while pretending to work!

Stefan T · Aug 19, 2013

I live in sweden and we need only pay register fee on our old cars $10 a year
New car is some difftent story and i pay $500 for my Peugoet 207CC Hdi a year

Rusty O'Toole · Aug 19, 2013

mike in tucson said: ↑

Taxable horsepower is why British cars had salt shaker sized pistons and Looooong strokes...the formula use the bore dia only, not the stroke.
Click to expand...

Interesting question of engine design. Is it better to have a short stroke, high revving engine? Or a long stroke engine that won't rev but has more displacement? Which is better, RPMs or displacement?

This question was up in the air in 1904 when they invented the HP formula. Maybe they figured it wouldn't make any difference. Maybe they wanted to see what would happen.

They soon found out what happened. Displacement turned out to be the answer. Long stroke engines ruled.

When this formula was invented most engines were square or equal bore and stroke. Soon the long stroke engine came into vogue and was the most popular design even where the HP tax did not demand it. Like North America where HP taxes were low or non existent.

Like I said, England abandoned the HP tax in 1947.

falcongeorge · Aug 19, 2013

Rusty O'Toole said: ↑

Interesting question of engine design. Is it better to have a short stroke, high revving engine? Or a long stroke engine that won't rev but has more displacement? Which is better, RPMs or displacement?

This question was up in the air in 1904 when they invented the HP formula. Maybe they figured it wouldn't make any difference. Maybe they wanted to see what would happen.

They soon found out what happened. Displacement turned out to be the answer. Long stroke engines ruled.

When this formula was invented most engines were square or equal bore and stroke. Soon the long stroke engine came into vogue and was the most popular design even where the HP tax did not demand it. Like North America where HP taxes were low or non existent.

Like I said, England abandoned the HP tax in 1947.
Click to expand...

Yea, and the real plus is, the smaller the bore, the more you restrict intake valve diameter. Where do guys get this crap...

Tman · Aug 19, 2013

Wowcars said: ↑

I've never even HEARD of "taxable horsepower" Damn glad MN doesn't have that.
Click to expand...

has to be the only tax your guys DON'T have!

moonlitrn · Aug 19, 2013

Tman said: ↑

has to be the only tax your guys DON'T have!
Click to expand...

pretty dang close- but once they hear of this one it'll get added

Midwest Rodder · Aug 19, 2013

Had no idea about this, 2 months ago I put plates on my F1 and it only cost me $37.00 and it has a V8. My wifes daily driver cost more to put plates on and it's a v6.

rustynewyorker · Aug 19, 2013

You don't pay much more than you would in New York, where it's done by weight.

2 years on a '50 Chevy was like $66.50 -

Rusty O'Toole · Aug 19, 2013

falcongeorge said: ↑

Yea, and the real plus is, the smaller the bore, the more you restrict intake valve diameter. Where do guys get this crap...
Click to expand...

Only on an OHV engine. Flatheads have no restriction on valve size. Notice the typical flathead has a valve chamber wider than the cylinder?

Those old time designers were not dumb. Given that the bore size was fixed by tax and license laws, while stroke was unlimited, and compression ratio was limited by available low octane fuel, the smart thing to do was to design a long stroke flathead engine and that is what they did.

jcmarz · Aug 19, 2013

TennesseeZ said: ↑

And we actually elect these people again and again.
Click to expand...

Same here in The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia. A quote from a movie " Do you know what insanity is? It's doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

KRB52 · Aug 19, 2013

moonlitrn said: ↑

pretty dang close- but once they hear of this one it'll get added
Click to expand...

If our gubener in the soon-to-be Socialist State of Connecticut hears about this kind of tax, he'll grab on to it and take it to places we can not imagine. ANYthing with an engine will be taxed. Oh, electric motors have an HP rating? Them too. Own a stable? Well, each horse has to be one horsepower, so they get an HP Tax, too. I'm sure that in time, they will come up with a rating system for cows, chickens, ducks, pigs, rats, ants, flies, cockroaches, etc. and tax them as well.

cavman · Aug 19, 2013

"Gas" tax for the cows??

dan c · Aug 20, 2013

Midwest Rodder said: ↑

Had no idea about this, 2 months ago I put plates on my F1 and it only cost me $37.00 and it has a V8. My wifes daily driver cost more to put plates on and it's a v6.
Click to expand...

tax hp only applies to passenger cars in mo. pickups go by load rating and whether you get "local" or "beyond local" plates. there's also historic plates, but i have been hassled by the cops for "misusing" them.

1971BB427 · Aug 20, 2013

dan c said: ↑

this may be a minor beef, but it's bugged me for a long time. here in missouri, the cost of license plates is based on taxable horsepower. i've had four shoebox fords with flatheads (32.5 taxable h.p.), and when i go for plates, the geniuses at the license bureau inform me that all v-8s have 50 h.p. and i wind up paying the same as a 500 caddy! i finally convinced them by bringing in my "green bible," which shows taxable hp back in the spec section. i also sourced wikipedia's "tax horsepower" page, which gives this formula: h.p. = DxD x n divided by 2.5. "D" is the engine bore (in my case 3.1875), and "n" is the number of cylinders (8). hope this is of help!
Click to expand...

From what I see on the charts, you and DMV were arguing over about $6? Even the highest rate is pretty darn small compared to most states!

George · Aug 20, 2013

mike in tucson said: ↑

Taxable horsepower is why British cars had salt shaker sized pistons and Looooong strokes...the formula use the bore dia only, not the stroke.
Click to expand...

I believe there's a high & low tax based on the CID of a Cyl. If the cyl is above a certain amount the tax jumps. That's why the Jag engine is a 327 CID V12, but I guess bore size would have the same effect.

finn · Aug 20, 2013

Illinois used taxable horsepower for registration purposes back in the 70's if I remember correctly.

Seems like it shows up on old titles.

I think they changed away from taxable horsepower when four cylinder engines became popular (pintos, vegas, corollas, etc).

Also, remember that taxable horsepower was just a standard. they could have used weight, but calibrated scales were probably uncommon in 1904, the number of door handles, or anything else.

I wouldn't get too upset over it. Any system has its plusses and minuses.

LittleBritishCar · Aug 20, 2013

I don't get it. If they want to tax something that makes sense why not gross vehicle weight since vehicle weight directly impacts wear-and-tear on the roads. But, then again, we pay enough on gas tax to pay for the rads but it is diverted to other BS that I wont get into here.

Jims35 · Aug 20, 2013

I'v heard of it but never knew any thing about it. Here in Idaho, cars and pickup trucks if not for commercial use is pretty cheap. It varies from different years , older are cheaper . We register and own the plate , it never sells with the car . We can take a plate from and older car we sell and transfer it to a newer one by just paying the transfer fee and the extra cost on registration for it being a newer car. Or we can just pay about $2.00 more and get a new metal plate that they attach a registration sticker to.

We can get street rod plates which i have and a big selection of others.

.

fordsum · Aug 20, 2013

I will pay tax on 50 hp but I will really have 400hp

We pay TAX when we make our money and We pay tax when we spend our money that sucks

Beyond Repair · Aug 20, 2013

I am glad I live in Texas. Registration is about $60 for 5 years on an old vehicle.

Truckedup · Aug 20, 2013

falcongeorge said: ↑

Yea, and the real plus is, the smaller the bore, the more you restrict intake valve diameter. Where do guys get this crap...
Click to expand...

Maybe.. some new engine have smaller bores and longer strokes that the same displacement had 20 years ago....And the new ones make more power. All O/T of course....variable cam timing with smaller better flowing ports might trump bigger valves....

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taxable horsepower

dan c
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dan c ALLIANCE MEMBER from st.louis,mo

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dan c
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from st.louis,mo

treb11
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from Bastrop, Texas

62nova
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from Taylor Texas

TennesseeZ
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from Bean Station TN

porknbeaner
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from North Central Missouri

Rusty O'Toole
Member

from Ontario Canada

mike in tucson
Member

from Tucson

Wowcars
Member

from St Paul, MN

arkiehotrods
Member

from Northwest Arkansas

fourspeedwagon
Member

from Yakima Valley, WA

A-D Truckers

COE's (Cab Over Engine)

License Plate Collectors

Long Roofs - Station Wagons

Northwest HAMBers

Stefan T
Member

from Sweden

Rusty O'Toole
Member

from Ontario Canada

falcongeorge
Member

from BC

Tman
Member

from Beautifull Black Hills of South Dakota

moonlitrn
Member

from where the weather suits my clothes

Midwest Rodder
Member

from West Plains, MO

rustynewyorker
Member

from Upstate New York, watching my New Yorker Rust

Rusty O'Toole
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from Ontario Canada

jcmarz
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from Chino, Ca

KRB52
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from Conneticut

cavman
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from Eau Claire,Wi.

dan c
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from st.louis,mo

1971BB427
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from Oregon

George
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from Ft. Walton Bch.,Fla.

finn
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from Dollar Bay, Mi, Marana, Az

LittleBritishCar
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from Napa, CA

Jims35
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from Parma Idaho

fordsum
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from SO CA

Beyond Repair
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from Pearland, Texas

Truckedup
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from Finger Lakes