Turning angle for steering, how much?

Setting up my front end on my first build and need help with turning angles.
As you can see, with everything set up as in the photo, the steering angle would be 24 degrees. Is there a number I should be looking for? Seems like it should be more.
The only possible solutions I can see are a longer steering arm? Bend the drag link for clearance? Or, "don't worry it's fine"
Input please. Thanks!

 

Most of what I've read is 30-35 degrees.

 

do you have the stop nut on the back of the axle? It hits a round machined part on the spindle. You could use a slightly more offset wheel or a smaller tire. The ability to make tight turns is cool but not being able to is not the end of the world. When you cant make a tight right turn at a signal your in trouble.

 

Have not set up a stop yet. Mocking up using the drag link as a limiter to check the angle. Right turns should not be an issue with hitting the drag link. Front end is already wide so more offset is not an option. Narrower tires..... Maybe?


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Okay for AM bumpy?

 

No, it won't change much.

Your pic shows what is wrong. Your pitman arm is way out too far, to clear the split bone. If you bring the arm straight down, you then need to move the bone inwards.

I study every old build to see how they fixed the angle problems back when.

I have 2 original 50's built chassis here and both have the bone mount different than todays typical build. They welded the rear bone mount "tapered bung" into the bracket, backwards. Then the tie rod end on the rear of the bone, comes into that mount plate from the backside, so the bone gets moved under the frame. Some cars also ran that main plate on the inside of the frame rail, not the outside, that gains more room.

Some old builds had a slight bent halfway back on each bone, to gain more turning radius.

Living with a car that won't turn enough, is not fun at all. You will hate parking at a show, or getting into some tight places.

 

Here are pics of 2 different 32's.

The last pic with the red painted X member is mine. In that pic, you can see the "old" 50's bone mount plate hanging down, and it has a backwards bung. I chose not to use it, and ran the bone deeper under the car, using a web plate in the area where the center of the X leg, meets the outside framerail.

The other pics are all of a different 32 I just did. If you look at the 2nd pic showing the passenger side, you can see where the owner had the bone mount out at the rail. It had no turning radius, or not nearly enough.

So, I made a plate to fit between his center X member "pipe" leg, and the outside rail. That got the bone way under, then the F100 pitman had room to stay close to the frame. It does steer to full factory steering stop bolts.

 

Move the bone to the inside of the frame and move the arm in as far as it will go and you will be fine. On my touring the tire rubbed the draglink at full lock but that was in the tightest of conditions and seldom an issue.

 

Good Eye F&J and as always some good and solid suggestions.

Crminal I think they pretty well nailed it. You need to bring the bones in and then bring the steering arm in to get the drag link in away from the tire.

I'm adding F&J's photos to my build idea album for my Model A Vicky for when the chassis build time comes.

 

I kept my bones connected... and made something to hold them under the engine.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=677460

Sam

 

The stock 32 and 33/34 pitman arms have the ball on the inside, effectively under the frame rail. your bones are well outside the rail, the pitman arm is cranked to clear it, and the drag link is outside of the pitman arm. You have relatively wide tyres on 15" rims with not much offset.

Every one of these things reduces your steering angle on full lock. Whichever of these you can change will improve the lock angle.

As said above, I would try and get the bones as far inboard as possible, fit a straight pitman arm with he ball locates frame side and the drag link the other way to what you have now. That will probably be enough to make things acceptable.

Mart.

 

F&J, thanks for taking the time to help. I did bend the arm to clear the bones. Perhaps should have left the arm, did no know it was okay to move the bone so far inboard. I'll go play with that now.

Thanks as well Tman & Mr48

 

I've checked that out previously and no question it is beautifully done!

 

^ this bit of info is often either forgotten, or we never had the stock pieces to know the original location of the pitman "ball".

No matter what you do with the common Ford parts we use, the draglink will just about touch the tire on full lock to the left.

That is because Ford used a straight draglink

Mopar, for example, used a S bend in 2 directions on their forged drag link. The front inward bend, keeps it away from the tire. the other bend keeps the link from hitting anything on the front end, during full left, and on uneven terrain.



Here is the other old build with the rear hairpin tie rod end mounted backwards. This shows that those guys faced the same problems of tire rub on the bones/hairpins.

The front end is "spring ahead" which was common here in the Northeast, but normally done with bones and with an undropped axle beam.

This car has some uncommon east coast things, like dropped and drilled beam on a spring-ahead setup. Hairpins on a spring-ahead is also uncommon. Look at how the builder kept the stock angle of what was the spring-ahead front portion of the wishbone. But he ended up with an angled bend much "further back"on the hairpins, by adding a rectangular block to join the bone stub to the hairpin. That gained tire clearance, but he still mounted the rear tie-rod bungs backwards, to keep the hairpin end, under the framerail.(you can barely see it in the last pic)

This car is also unusual as it runs a Ford cross steer.

 

Okay, played with it a bit using your suggestions. Reheated and straightened the arm, took out 1 1/4" of bend.
Using Marts idea, mocked up the tie rod end to the inside.
As others suggested, moved the bones inward.
Now I have increased the travel to 30 degrees, thusly getting into better territory.

It is obvious now that the drag link should not be parallel to the frame as it was before. Needs to start inboard near the frame, then out to the tire.
Before after
But look where the ends of the bones are!

Do I make a structure underneath to mount the ends like F&J referred to?

Am I on the right track? Also what about a longer steering arm?

Thanks everyone!
(My first build)

 

Yeah, good work.

I just found this shot of my 33 setup.



You can see the drag link mounted inboard of the pitman arm.

Mart.

 

One more thing to add. If at all possible, see if you can get the front drag ling joint underneath the steering arm on the spindle. This will keep the angularity of the drag link down, and help prevent erratic steering. I reworked mine below and it helped a lot.

Here's a pic:



Mart.

 

Happy Friday!!! HOMIE!!!!

 

You are getting closer, but in pic #2, it looks like the pitman can go inwards more. Rule of thumb; if you move one end of the drag link in 1/2", you gain 1/4" at the tire rub spot on full left. 1/4" sounds silly, but it gains a lot in radius.

What I can't see in your pic, is if you do bring the pitman in to it's maximum point, will it hit the bone at some point of articulation/car roll, etc? You need to work all the goals AND consequences together, before deciding a compromise on one of your goals.

Compromise means; how far under can you run the bones, and if you do/don't like the look, when it is in deeper...as well as how much radius are you willing to lose, and how many mods are you willing to do.

Your question on longer steering arm on spindle top. Yes, that will help, but that changes ratio. Yeesh!...it all needs to be figured in; Tire footprint size and where the imaginary scrub radius line is with your choice of wheel offset. Also the weight on the front, and the caster angle which changes steering effort. Also steering wheel diameter...it does not end

If you decide to mess with ratios; I doubt you will run into this, but if a steering gearbox only is capable of moving the draglink X amount of inches with your final pitman arm length, make sure that your mock up with wheels off the ground, has a little extra travel left before the stops hit. That extra is needed when the car is at full weight, and sitting on the ground. If you planned it to barely hit the stops with no load, it won't even come close to the stops at full weight on the ground. That is due to flex of all the pieces together. Rare situation, mostly happens with a quick ratio box that has very few turns when disconnected.

 

Yep, I get it F&J, thanks. Gonna mock it up with the bones inside the frame rails. Been playing around with mounts for them and I think it gonna work bitchen!
I'm ready to tack my steering box in place and start removing variables.
So, with the bones out of the way and the box in position it will be narrowed down to getting the arm nice and close.

Flipping the tie rod end was huge.

I feel like 30 degree turning will be respectable for this car.

Mart - that is how I will mount mine. Thanks

Bryan

 

Ese!

 

I like the look of the bones kinda disappearing under the car. I also like learning stuff.

 

I have 28 degrees on my 37 plymouth and have found it to be just fine.

 

This might help you determine how much angle is enough:

turning circle radius = (track/2) + (wheelbase/sin(average steer angle))

 

Cool, that is also what I was looking for. A number, so I'd know when I was getting close!


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Nothing is simple; Which wheel is at 28?

When you go through a proper wheel alignment on any car, there is also a spec on "toe-out at turns".

Set one wheel at 20 on the turntables, then go read the degrees on the other side. Each car model differs, but usually 2 to 2.5 degree difference, which is sort-of checking ackerman in a different way. Specs are in Motors or Chiltons.

 

I hear ya F&J.......I get 28 degrees on my right wheel, turned to the right. Hang on, gotta switch to the Ipad app.....

 

Here's a shot from my build thread. Don't pay attention to the red thingy inside the instrument - I was simply using the tool as a protractor. That shot is looking down on the right front wheel. Traditional steering setup, using the Speedway straight axle kit. F&J is right, one wheel will turn a little more (or less) than the other / ackerman. If you need me to jack up my car and clarify what the other wheel turns to (degrees) I can. Just saying, my car's turning radius is "normal".


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I would think the slight different angle differences between different makes of cars, as seen in Chiltons and Motors, is for whatever the wheelbase is? It is merely checking/confirming the ackerman angle, which would differ on a SWB to a Long WB.

the specs are listed under "wheel alignment", as it was/is possible to find a car with a bent arm or spindle.

 

Been following on the side, looks like the issues is cleared up, you can figure the turning circle of your car by ploting the center line radius of the turned tire to its intersection of the center line of the rear axle.

Note to MART: When you use that hairpin style steering arm with a stock steering box and a stock length drag link it changes the center of the steering box index. The sector and worm are not centered and this produces a larger lash in the gear mesh which contributes to a shimmy effect.

If you got a king pin kit with the longer acorn style stop nut, Install the king pin lock pin and install the nut facing rearward. The head of the nut should just bump the spindle face at full lock or just before the tire rubs on the bars.