Enderle injector help!!!

From my phone I couldn't see it coming from the valve cover.

Ok so, how's this sound for a possibility of the problem? The tank has both a -6 and -12 vent. The 6 is aluminum tubing that comes up out of the tank. The 12 immediately does a 180 out of the tank, basically pointing straight down from the tank. The hose goes down and loops around. It's difficult to describe and I can't get a pic til tomorrow. I'll attach a pic of the fitting though. Anyway, is it possible that instead of a vent, a trap was created? Is it possible that it breaths through the small vent at low rpm, then when the pump starts spinning it's completely out of air? Not sure that explains why the car won't run with the proper size main jet it it.
Was talking to a friend at the track today, he runs a 383. His nozzles are 32's, with a 122 main jet. He also runs a 80a-1 enderle pump. Our 431 won't do shit until it gets an 80 jet with 35 nozzles.


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Forgot the pic


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Yes, I've looked inside the tank. I replaced the main line just Thursday, and at that time I cleaned out the tank and looked around for blockages.

Believe me, I don't take you as being a wise ass at all. I appreciate anyone taking the time to assist and share knowledge. You are correct, the fuel pressure is low. The problem is we really don't know what the pressure during the run is because it never gets that far. The car is starving somewhere. So far all thats taken place is a burnout and put it up on the trans brake. Once on the brake it hits about 7000 rpm, then the r's start to drop drastically. It has shown about 70psi on the fuel pressure gauge. I don't know how anyone else checks fuel pressure, but we have a check valve going to a gauge to show max psi. This is plumbed directly into the distribution block. And there are port nozzles directly into the tunnel ram runners.

Tomorrow I'll be back at the shop. I'm going to remake the tank vent, put a more appropriate main jet in, and see if it'll fire and idle. If it will I'm going to roll it out of the trailer and put it up on the trans brake and see what happens. I'll be honest, this learning experience has been a real pain in the ass and a pretty good source of frustration. But that's racing, right?

Here's another thought. Back in the 60's, what did racers do? I wouldn't think there were guys like Koehler and alkydigger, etc offering flowing services, were there? Did they just learn from trial and error??

 

I have found Dave to be quite knowledgeable. I've only spoken to mike via email, I feel like he only wanted to sell me something rather than be helpful. But that's all I've really delt with him.

I like the idea of checking the flow with a variable speed source. I can't get away from the feeling that it's something so simple. I like that there's an issue since I enjoy the troubleshooting, but I think I'll enjoy clicking off some good et's better.

I think I've mentioned that I'm doing another car with a bird catcher now (as if I have any business doing so, I can't even get the first one running!). I think before I fire anything up I should rig up what you suggest, and save myself some time. Thank you for taking the time to help.


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Thanks for the info. I didn't know this (Alkydigger is a poser)
I ran Enderle bird with a blower. The diagram that you posted is different then what I got from Enderle. Enderle had me run the main bypass in the out hole on the BV and the second or high speed bypass in the line that runs to the dist. block. Just something to check . Good luck.

 

That diagram is for tunnel ram. There is a different way to plumb it if you are blown.


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Yes I agree . I just think that if the bypass it restricting the flow to BV .Just a thought.

 

Yes, Sounds like the fuel pressure is not getting to the nozzles. I wonder if the nozzle is spraying or just dripping . It could be the springs and check valves in the bypasses.
I never had a lean problem it was the other way and to rich.

James

 

Yes, however the car won't even idle unless a small main jet is installed. With a 115 it will idle, with any crack of the throttle it dies. It won't rev until you get to about an 80. With the 80 it'll run and have throttle response. It'll go up on the trans brake for a moment, then the engine starves and the rpms drop. Couple more times of running this thing lean and we are gonna lose a motor!


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Have you checked the bypasses with a leakdown tester ? This will tell you what the pop pressure is set at. Don't sound like you have any back pressure to the nozzles. Just for the hell of it I would switch your two bypass pressures around.

 

Back in the day FI info was handled by talking directly to Hilborn (Gene Adams) or Enderle (Jim Rehfeild)

This type of system (tunnel ram) does not use any high speed lean-out. Fuel goes in the BV and comes out to the distribution block . the main is tied into that line to maintain a certain pressure throughout the run at a close to constant rpm. The check valve (poppet) underneath the main only serves to hold fuel from returning back to tank and filling the lines while cranking engine over to fire. As soon as the engine that poppet is open allowing the main jet to manage flow. The other poppet with return back to tank is just a pump saver as that circit only opens when BV is closed. That function is when you shut down the throttle from high rpms it bleeds off excess fuel pump pressure so you dont backside the pump.

My pump on my car is a 110 (13.5) a I use a -8 vent line without any problems in the last 16 years so a -6 should be fine. Anytime one puts a 360* curl in a vent line fuel can get trapped on the bottom and there is not enuff suction from fuel drawn from the tank to pull it out and will act as a blockage.

The confusion here is one thinks that larger nozzles means more fuel which it does not, pressure means more fuel as he demonstrates by reducing the main jet size which ups the pressure to the nozzles and more fuel is delivered. If one reduces the nozzle maintaining the smaller jet the system would go rich because the fuel pressure increases. The point of changing nozzles comes from heat, If ones runs dont see any changes in ET but exhause temps ar high or burning more that 3 threads of the plug (NGK's) then one would up the nozzle size because of the limit of fuel delivery has been reached. Again, a system I have here at the shop off a running 454 BBC only runs #28 nozzles and a 170 main using the same pump and plumbing schematic. Car ran consistent mid 8's.

Fuel injection works completely opposite of a carburater in fuel delivery

 

I had almost the same problem with my stack injection turned out the spool in the BV was 180 degrees wrong way, loosend the arm and rotated one half turn and voila..... it runs like a dream. There is a number stamped on the edge of the axle (in my case 54) the number should be on the left side of the axle when the slot is pointing up/down, or on the wider side of the BV if looking on the top of it.

My pic shows the number before i changed it. You might have to tilt your computor to wiew it correctly......

 

Very interesting thread Have had all sorts of rookie problems with my set-up. And by now I "think" I know something
Can't see that you have posted the leak-down numbers?
I would suggest that you hook up a leak-down tester and block off all returns from the BV. Read out what you have on idle and wide open throttle.
"listen" to the nozzles too, gives you an idea if something blocks the pressure. If this makes any sense...?


.................................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

Man, you guys are awesome. No we haven't solved the problem yet, but everyone's willingness to help is quite amazing.

Unfortunately it will take a couple days to go though all the suggestions. Between work and the car not being at home it's difficult. My dad ran over to the shop earlier to redo the vent and found no fuel trapped in the line. He still changed the routing of it, but wasn't able to fire it. Sometime after today we will get together on it and investigate more.

I don't have leak down numbers here, but I will get them. I will say that all header tubes are hot, so the assumption is that all nozzles are firing. I can't guarantee equally though.

Mctommy, I "think" the spool is in correctly. I will compare it to the others that I have to be sure, and report back.

Bruce, I have a question regarding nozzle size and jet size. Lets say that with the 28 nozzle and 170 jet the fuel pressure is 100psi. If I had the same motor and 30 nozzles with the 170 jet, the pressure would decrease, right? Now wouldn't putting a smaller jet, say 150, bring the pressure back up? In my head that seems like it would work, but does it not in the real world?
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correct, the pressure would decrease and get less fuel and putting a smaller jet would increase pressure and more fuel.But the balence flow of the system must have a baseline to engine size. I havent changed my nozzle size for 18years but yet I almost swap jets ranging from 120's up to 150's depending upon density alltitude. Plus I havent changed my leakdown in so long I cant even tell you where its at, In fact last year I had to replace my BV. A freind gave me a gas one so I took it over to Jim and had him modify to alc and had him set the leak to exactly what the other one was set at. I didnt care what the number was as long as it was set the same.

There is a big difference between a #28 and a #36 (approx 25% larger)
You are waisting time on this board----what did Jim say?????

 

I like the honesty. I actually just got off the phone with Jim. He's certainly not the most talkative but he did talk to me for a moment. He said that 35's may be a bit large, with that size I'd require about a 130 main jet.

He also said that to him, he thinks the barrel valve is too lean. He suggests making a large adjustment to fatten it up. This evening we may make the adjustment, fire it and see what we get.


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As I read these posts, I keep thinking of how many times guys have "stacked" main jets and kept scratching their heads as nothing changes after they change the jet. There should only be one in there and when you take it out, there should be none. Take a good look and consider marking the tool you use to change the main jet, so that it is obvious when it does not go in as far as it should. 2 cent tip.

 

There's definitely only one jet in there. But it's certainly a good suggestion, thank you


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You are thinking about running the jet in the BV itself, With this system the jet can only go into the holder between the the distrbution line and the primary bypass poppet, There is only room for one in the holder. The one that is normaly used in the BV is plugged off with a blank

 

Ok so here's where it's at. Earlier today the vent was changed to a nice straight run, no dips, curves, etc. The car was fired with a 125 jet (it wouldn't even idle with that big of a jet before) and it sat and idled. It would stumble bad when you cracked the throttle. Jim enderle suggested making a big adjustment to the BV to fatten it up, and it immediately came to life. It has solid throttle response and actually now runs quite well. I think it will need a larger main jet and some tuning but I do believe it is on the right track.


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Wow lots of info here,power of the hamb.

 

Bruce, great advice. Glad to hear it's coming around.

 

i agree that a leak down test is in order. with out the leak number its like having a drawer full of sockets with no numbers on them. when i first started working on injected engines i set my bv. as instructed. fired up fine and ran until the gas was hit. it fell off fast. after another leak down working the bv. it was determined to be off. the leak would go from 25 to about 95 then drop way off. with out a leak gauge your lost. i prefer the single gauge morroso. and when you use it keep an eye on your air compressor pressure. if the pressure drops below 100 lbs it will throw off your reading. i prefer to take my reading right after the compressor shuts off. i will put money on it the bv is off.

 

Ok, now I will comment. If you want the system right, get the whole thing flowed, EVERYTHING lines and all, Koehler is great to do this. You will get a flow sheet from hell. Dave is sharp he will help you in whatever way you need. I've done business with Dave for years. Guess or know. Your choice. It's well worth the effort and money. Lippy

 

Again get it flowed earlier post,I couldn't agree with you more Lippy, get it flowed !!!
You don't waste time at the track especially when you have your buddies
helping you and possibly blowing up the motor for what, now really ?

 

Yes, I do agree that getting it flowed is the way to go. I'm not ignoring those that have suggested that. Dave rebuilt and flowed one pump, and flowed another for us and I can tell you he provided a TON of numbers from his findings. I like that. The cost is not that bad and is not what is hindering us from doing so. What is stopping us at this time is the refusal to not be able to get it fixed ourselves. What I keep going back to is that who did the guys back in 1960 send their parts off to? I believe they called Enderle and he made suggestions and they made the adjustments, recorded their findings and how it reacted, and went out and kicked ass. I certainly wasn't around back then but that is what I think. If I'm wrong please tell me so. I just don't feel that I will learn as much without making the adjustments, changes, etc and seeing how the engine reacts. If it breaks, well sometimes the price of an education is expensive. Is that way of thinking stupid? Maybe. To me it's not. I can assure you that I know right now far more about this than I did a couple weeks ago. Most of what I am learning has come from the fine folks of this board, and I more than appreciate everyone taking the time to help.

I do not think that we will get it perfect. I do think that we will get it "pretty good". If this car goes out and clicks off an 8.20 pass then I know we are close. I personally can't speak for all of our cars but I will probably opt to have my personal setup sent out to be perfected by those with more tools and knowledge than myself.

 

So here's an update for those that are following along. In the past week we have re-done the vent and fattened the BV. Took the car out last night, had a 120 main jet, 35 nozzles, and the car left decent and turned a pretty good 1/8th mile time. The motor sounded kinda funky right after the 1/8th so he shut it down. Came back, found that it only built about 45psi and one cylinder was not nearly as hot as the rest. The injector in the number 2 cylinder was plugged. Cleaned the injector, the motor seemed fat so we swapped to a 130 and made another pass. It went 8.25 at 160. This is a pretty decent pass for this car.

It was pretty clear that the motor wants smaller nozzles (as many have suggested). So we will make some nozzle adjustment and go from there and see if we can't get the pressure up where it should be. You guys are a huge wealth of knowledge and I thank you for helping us out. The other car we took ran like shit but that's a whole different story.....

 

Cool Did you record Your leak-down?

K

.............................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

No and I can't do one now. The compressor died in my shop and I haven't been able to replace it yet. If it comes down to it I can drag the car to work and do one here.

 

Doublecheck the secondarybypass spring pressure, i set them with air. What i can be is happening is that the barrel valve rolls open and the fuel is running back to the tank thru the secondary that has too light a spring. I have seen guys stick an idle bypass spring in there.
I saw the spring rates on the diagram you posted, but doublecheck it anyway. For giggles you can block the secondary off for a looksee to what happens, then you'll know what fuel is going where.