I worked in a shop that paid an engineer to come in and advise on builds to the tune of $2,000 a day. His idea of fixing a sagging suicide door hinge was to put a kick stand on the door. I generally low opinion of most engineers, not to say that there aren't a few that are brilliant, but I've never come across one. Another time I watched an engineer scratch his head and waste lumber faster than you could burn it to make a run of 5 steps for a porch.
there are some good arguments showing both sides...I am not an engineer, but everyday I solve engineering issues while fabricating. Ive found common sense has been removed in many ways....and I seem to agree with this: "A degree doesn't make someone smart. It means they went to school" this is coming from someone who graduated from 2 technical school with high marks...Ive learned more hands on in many cases
Well.... pretty entertaining after reading all of this one........... Lets see if I can help explain. Engineers........ Book Smart / Street Smart..... only two types there are...... Street smart engineers you will never know....... the guys can drink beer, turn a wrench with the best, and you'll never know there 'smart' because they had to work for the 'book smarts' part..... Book Smart engineers profess their 'career' as almighty, have their nose to the air, won't have a clue what reality is, and get dirty? Right... I would assume 2/3rds of the engineers are the 'special' book smart type..... which is unfortunate..... I just got lucky that I like oil, grease, drink way to much beer, and had the opportunity to go a school and 'survive' till getting my piece of paper that says I kick ass doing equations, but lack major common sense......
I'm a Professional Engineer (mechanical), since 1983. My training has taught me to see how things work, why they don't, and how to make them work. Not patting myself on the back or anything, but I've designed and built tons of vehicles that have worked great. Labelling all engineers as "dipshits", etc. is, well, moronic.
Most of the stuff I build and plan to build in my shop is more complex than your average HAMB-friendly car, but I'll be honest...I don't really have any use for an engineer in my shop, nor could I afford to pay one (at least not the going rate for an engineer). Race teams, chassis shops...that may be another story. But a typical hot rod shop? No. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be beneficial to have an engineer on staff, just that it wouldn't make financial sense to do so. A good pay rate for a valuable shop employee wouldn't suit the average starting salary for an engineer. My suggestion? Get a good job in your field that you can enjoy, and if you really want to be involved in building hot rods after doing that, you could always start your own shop, or be the financial backer and engineering advisor to someone else's.
The day is not too far off when a set of engineered /stamped drawings for your hot rod will have to be submitted to the DWV before a license can be issued. Its a liability thing.
I actually just enrolled in my first year of university this year (at the ripe age of 31) and had contemplated the mechanical engineering program here. In the end I turned that program down, and took the industrial arts program, in education. (I figure I can learn whatever else I need to learn through all the holidays a teacher has through the year!) I know a few engineers that cant figure out some very simple things (and hire me to do those things for them) and in the end I didnt want to have a job where the ass time is greater then the time I could spend in a shop. My personal decision was also based on the kind of guy I am. I am a self proclaimed engineer of sorts anyways, i just didnt go to school to get the papers! More education is NEVER a bad thing! I also love the quote "a degree does not make you smart, it just means you went to school!"
Well said, now if you are interested to work as a productive shop employee, bringing your engineering knowledge with you and for the going rate for hot-rod shop employees then by all means, give me a call, we're looking to add another person to our team.
Yes we absolutely need engineers in hotrod supplier shops, if you had them some of these shops would be producing high quality parts instead of cheesed together junk made up of the cheapest easiest to obtain crap around. They would also slap some of these guys using inferior bolts to do massive load. Every old part you are using was engineered, 80 years ago, it's only still here and in working condition because some engineer told Henry to not be a cheap ass and use quality parts because death in accidents does not sell cars. You want non engineered products, go to the port, they are in those big metal boxes just waiting for you, and good luck with that.
If you are MAKING parts, thats another story...especially safety related items like chassis and steering components, etc. I don't think anyone would argue with you there.
I actually graduated in 2008 with an Bachelor in Science in Industrial Technology & Industrial Drafting and design. When I started college I originally went for history but got pulled into the tech department by a friend of mine so I change my majors. Once in the program i realized this is what I was meant todo. I had to take all the same major classes as an engineer would have taken plus more. We had a junior studio and 2 senior studios where we had to design a product from a design, on a piece of paper to completion and then we had to actually make it in to a real product not a model. When I started the program I noticed every one in the class was designing vaccum cleaners, lamps, melted plastic fork furniture ?lol and I am a gear head so that wasnt going to be me. By the time I graduated 3/4 the class had changed paces and followed my direction and went into automotive design, from an eletric car, to modifications to certain cars, a rock crawler and a drag car. We actually had to study the metals and the stress of the materials we was going to use for the design, we also had to machine and fabricate everything ( alot of trial and error) just like a real world situation. So out of college I got a job for an aviation company that designs modifications to big jets. I got a job as a CAD CAM Programmer and was programming parts, and engineers where coming to me all the time asking my advice on how to make something, or whats the best way to design something for cost of machineing and practicality. I reckon the engineer bosses got tired of there guys coming and asking me for designs and help so they promoted me to Mechanical design engineer. I am a very hands on guy and work real fast and they like that, alot of the younger engineers straight out of school doesnt have the hands on experience that I was taught in college and with ym 2 interenships for a company that builds highspeed machines. So if you are going into the engineer field I think it would be a great idea to take a couple interenships even if they are not required in a company that will put you hands on. Sorry I got off topic for a minute but, thought it might help.
You need a sense of humor to get through most engineering programs. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
With all the tech and cnc machines and Flo cutters more and more of these shops are making parts, problem is that these parts can be unsponsored by any safety society or engineering group, that will cause the insurance companies to balk at insuring product or vehicles that run these parts if they start to fail en masse. Just what killed the muscle car. Insurance companies balked. Sure you can say that the engineer is a wus, but he is basing his findings on science not trial by death and destruction. He can't say ah fuck it it 's good enough, if you die he's it, he stamped it. No one likes to be told no, but hey, If you are a certified auto tech then you realize that you worked hard to get the certification, your certification is the equivalent to this mans degree, you are trained to know not to compromise or put at risk the integrity of product, in a small way without all the Quantum Physics and Diffy Q you are an engineer, a set of trained field eyes that can spot a problem and comprehend the situation. Don't sell it short, any certified auto tech is in a way is also a field tested engineer right out of the box.
I've worked with quite a few engineers and there are few I remember as being really good. Those were the guys who didn't have an attitude, understood that though they could calculate forces and energy and whatever else engineers do, they didn't know HOW we needed the equipment to work. Good engineers listened to production and repair people, and because of that they never did any of the following: *design and constructed equipment off site that was bigger than the building it was supposed to go in, *designed equipment that was heavier than the floor of the facility could support, *designed mobile equipment with controls that were impossible (seriously) to use in real life scenarios, *and my all time favorite: spent millions of dollars, nearly half a decade, and countless meetings to design, build, ship, and deliver a machine that was made obsolete by two production workers, a millwright, and an electrician, all for the lowly sum of $250... An engineer in a rod shop would probably be very handy to have around, I suppose, provided he could perform other functions for the 90% of the time engineering isn't required.
I don't have time to read this whole thread, because I'm at work so I should be engineering something, not reading the HAMB, but I'm going to throw in my honest opinion and try to read the rest later. Yes, there is a need for a good engineer in a hot rod shop. If you know what you are doing, you can save the shop a lot of time trying to figure things out and make things by hand that could be done more efficiently by using engineering knowledge or a computer (GASP!) program such as Solidworks. I see a lot of laymen, especially in the offroad world who think they know Solidworks and don't need an engineer. I take that as an insult because I spent years in school and working professionally to master the advanced use of a piece of software that enables me to go design something that works the first time out. Sure there are guys who can teach themselves, but most of these guys are not replacing a college education by doing so. Second of all, yes there are some crappy engineers out there. I know some. I am a Design Engineer at an aftermarket intake company and the two engineers I work with are both machinists. I believe that our ability to work with our hands is what gives us an edge in the field. We don't send un-machinable parts to the machine shop or un-moldable parts to the rotomolder. Again, this is partially realized through hands on experience, and partially due to the ability to use our engineering and design degrees and the tools at hand. To the people saying engineers are morons and useless, you are generalizing and you are ignorant. Like everything, there are people who are good and bad at something. Are the engineers at NASA morons? How about the people who design and engineer cars with complex systems that start up and run every day?
Being an engineer myself for 25+ years you see it all. I have seen ones all over the spectrum in both capaility and understanding basics as well as complicated theories. Engineers tend to be more introverted and headstrong and therefore can get narrow minded and stare at an issue forever. But I also know ones who are very creative, open to suggestions and can get it done. It's like anything else, you can't lump everyone in one category without experiencing a large enough sample and the larger the sample the harder it will be to stereotype. To whoever is saying we're idiots I could probably come back and say the same thing about their profession, but I won't because I know all are not alike. Like I always say "not every doctor graduated at the top of their class". A lot of it is how God wired them along with their desires and aspiration.
I liked the conversation once overheard, about "are you crazy? go with Engineering, that's were the money is!" Supposedly this was a $lawyer$, advising a son's friend. I don't find this to be entirely true, but certainly within the realm of possibility...as usual, it all depends. If you learn what aspects of any work, bring the experience where time ceases...you've found something of great value, to do.
I realize this is an old thread but the state of CT DMV is telling me a home built or modified frame needs to be signed off on by a certified automotive engineer..Anyone know where i can find one in the CT/New England area. Doug
Yes I find that interesting also. My Great grandfathers cousin John Edison Sweet designed the "straight line engine" and the "micrometer caliper". He was also one of the founders of the "American Society of Mechanical Engineers" back in the 1880's; So much for dipshit's. I was named after him and my Dad being a Mechanical Engineer, professional race driver; motorcycles and cars, inventor, fabricator, airplane pilot, ships captain along with a dozen other things. He made it possible for me to also become many of these things and along the way I received my Mechanical Engineering degree over forty years ago and later my"PE" license. I've been welding and fabricating for almost sixty years and build all my own stuff. It's good to know that I'm a "dipshit". Johnny Sweet PE.
I am a mechanical engineer that owns a hot rod fabrication shop. My education comes in handy for problem solving and calculations. building hot rods is way better than practicing engineering in corporate america.
How many employers want to pay engineer wages, for a guy working in the shop ? On the other hand, the best engineers, know how to get their hands dirty.
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one going to college for engineering for opening my own hotrod shop! It's amazing how corporate institutions beat good engineers down and give all a bad wrap. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
It's generally best to start a new thread, rather that reviving a two year old one - your question gets overlooked as people respond to the initial post without noticing the date.
If you do that then many of us that may know a few things will never get the read what the so called experts have to say. Without their tutelage how would those of us that spent years receiving and education and working in the field and then passing the stringent certification test to get our PE. license ever learn how we are nothing more than "Dipshits". I say let the thread die in it's own time, and I did notice the date when I responded to it. Some of us have been around it seems like forever but may be new to the HAMB. Keep in mind that some of us have a lifetime of experience designing and building all kinds of stuff and bring a lot to the HAMB table even if we are "Dipshits". Johnny Sweet.PE.
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