Please help me diagnose a starting issue/drain/batt going dead...

Bob, my dad is an electrical engineer, lol. Your lack of faith in me is not discouraging. I solved a problem today. I got rid of a bad part. Tomorrow, I will rule out two more parts. Then I will begin circuit by circuit looking for a short or parasitic draw. Each and every thing done to this truck was done by me, sometimes with the help of my good buds in my car club. That includes wiring from front to back. Everything worked great for a year, I'm sure it's something stupid like the generator belt slipping or some other nonense even somebody as smart as you would miss for a while. What other equipment do I need besides a volt meter and a test light?

I learn by doing and getting in over my head. How else am I going to learn? Besides, I can't afford to pay people to do stuff for me. If the only tip you have for me is to pay somebody, you're not exactly helping, all due respect.

As far as chasing my tail, I don't have any high draw/high demand electronics in this truck. Nothing is newer than 1960 besides the battery and the wiring (which is an exact copy of stock 1955 factory harness). The problem is something is killing the battery causing the vehicle not to start. I believe the most common cause of that if everything else is working properly is failure to charge. That's why I'm having the guy who rebuilt the generator bench test it again. Might as well check the starter at the same time. With no fuses, I would think a short would melt wires causing something not to work properly, everything works except the dead batt and cranking.

What would you check before checking the battery, starting, and charging system if you had something killing your battery?

 

And can I add, thank goodness for motorbikes for when the pickup lets you down.




BobMcD, I got in over my head on that one too. Including building it from the ground up (1st bike build), rebuilding the engine (1st rebuild) and trans (1st rebuild), and *wiring* it from scratch, lol. It hasn't killed any batteries yet.

 

This is TF's reply in post #5 of this thread. It should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a parasitic draw. (Unless TF left the ignition on when he did this test. Then all bets are off. )

An intermittent starter is normally an indication of bad brushes. Redneck diagnostic would consist of smacking the side of the starter a couple of times with a hammer and then see if it cranks. If so, probably have worn brushes.

Your series of failed batteries really point to a charging issue. Batteries that aren't fully charged tend to have a short lifespan.

 

After reading the whole thread, I am gonna toss my suggestion here LOL
Solenoid needs tested and rebuilt if bad, I had a bad one on my 69 chebbie C10 that kept engaging my starter as soon as I turned the ignition off, thereby causing a dead drain almost immediately. I went thru more batteries, and starters than I knew what to do with during that 3 month diagnosis LOL
Good luck with this.

 

In answer to your question a generator can cause a draw, though the regulator is more likely to be the culprit. An ammeter can also cause a draw and aren't very safe, all the manufacturers have been using voltmeters instead for many years. Hope this helps.

 

I know there is a draw with the radio memory function. I, like you, believe the symptoms point to a charging issue. Which is why I'm going through testing the charging circuit before spending three days unwiring the entire truck with the test light.

I got a new starter solenoid. It was installed when I got the starter tested today at the parts place and it tested good. I'm still taking it to the pro tomorrow when I get the generator checked out.

The truck was having the same problem a while back and I found the points in the voltage regulator were sticking closed. I have since (a couple of months ago, not driving much during that time as I was repairing sheetmetal) got a new regulator. It is not getting hot like the old one was when the points were sticking. It could very well be that fixed the problem, and that the battery was already too far gone by the time I fixed the problem that was killing the battery.

Lots of power going through that ammeter. But I figure that they used them for a long time and drove everywhere with them for a long time, I'll probably be ok too. Mine is factory stock from a good condition low mileage truck.

 

I just want you to avoid changing a bunch of parts without knowing what the problem is. Everything has to work together as a system. By taking a systematic approach to testing you will find the problem. Need to start with a known good battery. The battery was tested by 3 different guys with 3 different results. So we really don't know if it was good or bad. Now we have a known good battery. Next you could do drain test with the key off disconnect the negative battery cable measure the voltage between the negative battery post and the negative battery cable. If you show 12 volts, you have a drain that needs to be diagnosed by disconnecting a circuit at a time until you find the cause. Next you would do a cranking test with the ignition disabled measuring cranking amperage and voltage at the battery and at the starter. There shouldn't be more than about a half a volt difference between the battery and the starter solenoid. If it's more than that then you have an excessive voltage drop, which could be too small a battery cable or a poor ground, or a dirty batter cable. The more the connections, the more of a voltage drop. If the voltage to the solenoid is oK but it still won't crank, measure voltage between the post on the solenoid where the battery connects and the post to the starter motor. It should read zero or pretty close to zero. If you read 12 volts the solenoid contact is open. Reconnect the ignition and start the engine. Run it up to about 1500 RPM. Measure the voltage and amperage with loads off. the voltage should be between about 13.6 and 14.7. Turn on all the loads and the voltage will drop a bit and amperage output go up. I am just guessing but the generator would put out about 30amps under a full load. When the truck won't start, begin at the battery and go from there. If the battery is low on charge, you should check the battery, charging system and for a drain. If the battery is fully charged it should measure 12.6 volts. If it won't crank with a fully charged battery, check your starting system, which is not only the starter but the wiring and connections in between. You had stated in your original post that the truck sat for 2 months and started right up, so I wouldn't suspect a drain. I still suspect that this problem started when the battery was relocated to the bed. What worked before won't necessarily work now with longer cables and a V8 instead of a 6cylinder.

 

I am an electrician. Let's talk about your volt meter and how to use it. First, we always start at the problem (your starter motor). Let me emphasize that 12 volts is very easy to hold back. If the back plate on your starter motor has too much paint inside, it can insulate the brushes from ground. Make sure the starter motor back plate bolts have lock washers that dig into the steel.

So, let's begin by putting black prod on ground, and keep it there for all these tests: Put the red prod on the starter motor feed stud WHILE CRANKING. All tests must be done under this kind of load. There is no substitute. What is the voltage reading? If you have steady 12 volts or anything above, the starter motor is bad or you lost your engine ground. If you have 12 volts but the solenoid chatters, the solenoid case has a bad ground or a loose connection between "Start" post and your Key Switch. Don't be afraid to shake the wires on your Key Switch while cranking.

Again, under load, if you don't have 12 volts at the starter motor, keep testing for power going back to each connection towards the battery. You WILL find the culprit, even if it ends at the battery post clamp.

Check for bad grounds by reversing the process. Put the red prod on Batt + and keep it there. While cranking the engine, test your engine ground, body ground, solenoid ground, etc., with the black prod. If you don't see 12 volts, you have a bad ground connection or wire. Just that simple.

I refuse to rebuild things several times and throw unnecessary parts at a problem. Good troubleshooting practices trumps all that other stuff, it's cheaper and faster.

Your Voltage Regulator has three relays inside. When you shut your key off, the normally open contact disconnects your battery from the gen. Open the cover and watch it. When the generator spins, this relay closes. Turn the key off and it opens. If that isn't happening, either the Key Sw is not shutting off or the Voltage Regulator is sticking. Be sure your Voltage Regulator base and generator are grounded as well.

BTW, does your GEN light work on your dash when you first turn the key on??? That light is important as it 'tickles' the gen Armature to start charging with the right polarity. If the light bulb is burned out, your gen may not charge or it may. It depends on how much residual magnetism is left from the last time. - Dave

 

Now that's some help!

First off, if this new battery is like the last ones, it's going to crank just fine for six months, then die, that is if nothing else is done.

 

Dave, some good tips, thanks!

No gen light on the dash on this truck. The only lights on the gauge panel are high beam and turn signal indicators.

Second, my volt meter is not going to reach between the battery and all the grounds, some are five feet away or so.

No paint problems with either starter or generator, they're both chromed, totally.

The only part I replaced that wasn't known bad was the starter solenoid. I replaced parts as I found problems. I had the generator and starter rebuilt before I installed the new cad engine because they were fifty years old, the engine was rebuilt so I wanted to start fresh with everything. And I wanted to chrome them.

 

Second, my volt meter is not going to reach between the battery and all the grounds, some are five feet away or so.

Use a jumper wire with a good clip , it can be 20 feet long
Chrome can mess with electricity if the case needs a ground

 

A bad capacitor can cause a draw. Had an OT car with a cap at the voltage regulator factory installed that would drain when sitting for a day or two. Changed voltage regulator several times. Used a test light to find the draw and cliped the wire. no more dead battery. The cap was there for a mechanical voltage regulator the replacment was electronic and didn't need the noise supression of the cap.

 

True. Never assume a good electrical connection. A visual inspection can be misleading. Unless tested any connection can be a problem. First lesson in electrical troubleshooting.

 

Alright, the verdict seems to be in. The generator was charging low. The armature had gotten hot, presumably from the points sticking closed in the old voltage regulator. It may need new fields too.

 

not the problem i realize, but worth mentioning. a couple people hit the nail on the head here when they said there could be a dead cell in the battery, and replacing it doesn't mean a battery problem is gone. there are only 3 different companies that manufacture all car batteries sold in the united states and the quality of the batteries these days ain't what it used to be. out here in the desert southwest, you can realistically expect to have to replace a good, new battery about every 2 years, and i've seen some last only 4 or 5 months dues to a dead cell.
...and be careful whose opinion you put stock in when having a battery tested, if they type in incorrect CCA specs/rating, etc. on the testing machine, it will give an inaccurate reading, meaning it can show good when in fact it is bad.

worth mentioning.

 

Thanks for that! This particular battery is manufactured by Johnson Controls. I've always had really good luck with their batteries.

 

Terd, there was mention of a long cable run w/the battery now in the bed? I ran an undersize cable from the trunk forward to the fuse block. Had nothing but trouble since the voltage was reduced when I need 12+V for starting. Replaced w/a larger dia cable and everything woke back up. Good luck on it.

 

The battery is at the very front of the bed, maybe four or five feet of cable.

 

Didn't read all of the replies but my Lincoln did something similar, turned out the ground cable to the block from the battery wasn't making great contact.. Cleaned it off and installed one of those crush washers and never did it again.

 

I am glad you found a couple culprits so far, proud of you . Voltage drop could be an issue, that is what the battery cable guys were saying. When I was helping design stuff for Delta Airlines I got a pretty good education on this, just check it with a meter to see if you are getting 12v through it to the end. If not, then you may need a bigger gauge or may have to look at something else.

I am sure you are okay with this, but it is an easy check and you need to eliminate EVERYTHING. I would start with the battery connections, next I would go through and check the ground connections and make sure you have dielectric grease under them.

Also, just wondering, did you put any kind of grease in any connections that could be causing this? Dumb question, but I discovered something similar on the new truck I just bought... sometimes people make mistakes, I fixed it, no more problems now.

Also check for chaffing of wires going though the firewall, being clamped down, etc. I would especially check where the headlight wiring goes through the inner fender, same for the running lights up front, and the tail lights... with all of that on and off action you have been doing with the bed and the front sheet metal I would be suspect that something maybe wrong there... maybe something is pinched or cut and when the wire hits the frame it drains it. If you do those couple checks I say that way you can eliminate everything away from the cab/engine compartment. That will make you job easier in trying to find the culprit... I too like it simple, so I don't expect for you to find anything in the engine compartment, I would probably guess it is in the cab or the wiring to/from.

I usually have 2 volt meters or more on hand just in case one shits the bed, plus then I can check the accuracy of others. A new meter at Lowe's is like 10-20 bucks now, not that big of an expense, maybe a good idea for the future.

Let us know what is going on!

 

Interesting stuff, here's one little experience I had! Back in about '83, Mom calls me at work, all upset, (she was retired), her Falcon wouldn't start, battery was dead! "I need a new battery, Michael"! Arguing with her was not a good thing to do, I tried to explain, it MIGHT not be the battery! I went by her house after work, charged it up, did a quick check over and left. The car was very reliable, this was the only time it acted up like this. Sure as hell, a couple of days later; DEAD again! I pulled a new battery off the shelf and put it in, I still didn't believe that was it! She was happy, until, sure as HELL, 3 days later; the new one was dead!! Crap, she was madder than a wet cat!! Cut to the chase, that car was very simple electrically speaking; I put my test light across a battery terminal. It lit so dim, you couldn't hardly tell it! Man, what was it? As I was checking things under the hood, I just happened to put my hand on the brake light switch. Ford used a pressure type switch from '39 to '64, mounts on the master cylinder. It was slightly warm, so slight, I had to feel it several times to be sure that was it! It was drawing VERY little, but enough to draw down the battery over a 2 to 3 day period! $3.45 later it was fixed! The original battery? I used it for a long time in my own stuff!! NEVER argue with your Mom, unless your name is Mike!

 

glad you got this resolved! been watching to see what ended up being the problem

 

OK, the total new verdict is in. Fields are good to go. Armature was bad, to be replaced with good used piece. The brand new voltage regulator I got from the local parts place for a '59 cad engine does not work with the generator. It is unclear if it's because it's the wrong part or just a bad unit.

I will exchange the voltage regulator under warranty and test the new-new one with the gen. If it works, I'm good to go. If it doesn't, the gen guy has a super fancy made in USA model for a little more money and I'll use that.

So, to sum up, a voltage regulator previously tested good with the generator went bad ruining the armature. New voltage regulator never worked properly. Funny.

 

Nice Avatar there terd, that Hardly-Drivable looks a proper size...

Gotta get me a shovel, or is it a pan, eyes are goin'.

 

'69 generator shovel. I wish it was a pan, lol. One day...

 

The new voltage regulator did not work. I ended up with one listed for a '53 cadillac that did test well. I'm not sure if my engine has an older than '59 generator (no tag, all chrome) or the parts company lists the wrong unit for my engine. The numbers on the one I used are 2121, it's one that the generator rebuilder recommends for most GM 12 volts with gens.

Anyway, the generator is as good as new with a new armature, the voltage regulator works with it, and I have a brand new battery. All is right and good again. Thanks for the help!

 

Isn't buying "new" parts that don't work fun?