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Event Coverage 1949 Battery Drain Wiring Help Needed

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Dirk35, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Hi all. Can someone PLEASE help me to figure out what is draining the battery on my 49 Ford Pickup? I apologize that the Background info is kind of long, but it’s important to give you the info and tool to help point me in the right direction.

    I have no Idea where I went wrong! Please help me!

    The truck wasn’t charging the battery so I researched and discover a missing wire and I installed the wire from the Alternator output, with the fusible link to the positive side of the Solenoid and the gauge would now show increased charge while revving the engine. I thought I had it all solved until the very next morning.

    I verified the Battery is good. Charged it up and checked and it registered 12.39 volts, disconnected the NEG Cable and went to Dallas for a Change of Command Ceremony for 4 days. Came back and the battery registered 12.43.

    The next morning, the truck was totally dead. Weird….. After adding the wire from the Alternator, I only drove it a mile to the store and back. Truck seems to have everything in working order. So I searched the HAMB for every Battery Drain post and wiring I could find and so far this is what I have done:

    I pulled the Negative Cable and put a Test light between it and the battery post and it glows BRIGHT! It didn’t do this before adding the wire from the Alternator to the Solenoid. I checked it with the Multimeter and it’s pulling 11.78 volts with everything turned off, thus draining the battery in about two hours. It didn’t do this before, but I figured I’d start with the easiest stuff to check and go from there. I pulled each fuse one at a time and the light stayed on the entire time (Ignition Key OFF). I pulled the output wire off the back of the alternator and the light went out. Check it with Multimeter and this single wire is the culprit. Put it on, constant draw of power, take it off, all is good but the truck will not charge the battery. The Alternator and Regulator are brand new (Got a new one of each last month DEC 2012, trying to figure this out, but maybe the new ones could be the culprit).

    I called Bob at Rebel wire and he walked me through the following steps and we still haven’t figured out the problem. Below is what we have checked:
    1. Pulled the NEG cable and put test light back on and pulled each fuse again. Test light stays on.
    2. Checked each thing with battery NEG cable attached and with only the test light bridging the circuit.
    3. Verified the dome lights, instrument lights, brake lights are not staying on.
    4. Pulled the Wire for the Air Conditioner and it did nothing. Test light stays on.
    5. Checked power to the Alternator Exciter with key OFF shows no volts, turn ignition key ON and it registers 12.74 volts. Checked it a few times to make sure. Test light stays on.
    6. Checked the Coil POS Side with Key OFF, it shows no volts, turn ignition key on and it registers 12.48 volts. Test light stays on.
    7. Pulled the electric choke wire, Test light stays on.
    8. Verified the ignition switch is wired correctly.
    9. Disconnected both dome lights and it still lights the Test light.

    *********************


    The Background info:
    I built a 49 Ford Pickup with the 51 front clip. This is the second Hot Rod I’ve wired myself using a aftermarket kit. The Truck starts, runs fine, turns off, and all lights and blinkers work like they should. I’ll list the components so you have an idea of possible electrical draws. It has a 390 Ford with C6 Tranny, Rebel Wiring Harness, Vintage Air Kit, Ididit Column (not keyed), Ron Francis Ignition Switch, Spal Window regulators, Classics Instruments Quad Gage, the Spot light is not hooked up and I don’t have a radio or horn installed yet. It uses a Ford Ignition Module, Ford Electronic Distributor, Napa Coil, Napa Solenoid on the Firewall, 1971 Ford Externally regulated Alternator, Napa External Voltage Regulator, Napa Rebuilt Starter, and a Napa Battery. All of these parts were bought in 2011 through 2012, and they all work like they should. I’m using a Craftsman Multimeter, had it many years, it works great. The Carburetor has a Electric Choke.

    I welded a nut inside the frame for the ground, and used 1 Gauge Battery Cables. The Engine has a ground cable running from the Alternator Bracket to the Frame. The Alternator has a ground Cable that runs to the Frame. The Body has a ground cable running to the frame.

    The two people that have helped me: 1. I work for the US Army so I’ve had our Motor Sergeant look over it and help on the past two issues. 2. My Brother is a Computer Aided drafter who’s company builds test stands to test mechanical functionality of new products, such as a jet engine, Chrysler’s new fuel injection system for their diesel engines.

    When I finally completed the install of the Harness (November 2011), the truck would crank over but not start. I had my brother come over and we chased every wire and it was wired correctly. Turned out the Ignition Module was bad straight from the parts store. Got that fixed. when I originally wired the truck, I pulled the Regulator, Coil, Alternator, Solenoid, off a 91 F150 for free. In my efforts to discover I have a bad ignition module, I replaced each of these one piece at a time! If I didn't have those that were originally free to me until I got a new one for each (and were actually good working parts), I would've wired this one more like a Chevy. Here is the Thread:
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=647771
    http://youtu.be/VPEDPoBQ_S0




    After I got the truck running, it would not recharge the battery, but it was slow and only if I drove it. It wasn’t a drain while the truck was off because I could recharge the battery, go out of town for two weeks, come back and it would start right back up. I would check the battery after charging and it would register 12.48-12.85 volts every time(no matter how long I let it sit) until after driving it which it would slow discharge. Truck ran fine, but the battery would go to dead to start it after about 4-5 trips around town or a long drive. Checked the routing of all the wires and its all wired per the directions so I pulled the regulator and bought a new one form Napa. That changed nothing. The gauge would show right under 13 Volts and would just slowly go down as we drove it. After much research we discovered that the Rebel Wiring kit instructions don’t ever mention the Power output wire from the Alternator to the Battery or POS side of the Solenoid. It was just in a ziplock bag from the kit and by the time I had a ton of scrap wires in the box, I overlooked it and didn’t install it. The To figure it out, we recheck the wiring instructions, then pulled the Negative cable off the battery, put a test light in between and it didn’t light, used the MultiMeter and it showed no power drain while off, so we downloaded the wiring diagram for a Ford Ignition system Happened to find one for a 68 Mustang (best one I could find) and discovered the missing cable. I installed the wire from the Alternator output, with the fusible link to the positive side of the Solenoid and the gauge would now show increased charge while revving the engine. I thought I had it all solved until the very next morning.

    How the Truck is Wired:
    http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/951941-rebel-wiring-harness-instructions.html

    Battery: The POS cable goes from the Battery to the Solenoid. The Negative Cable goes to the Frame. I welded a nut inside the frame for the ground, and used 1 Gauge Battery Cables. The Engine has a ground cable running from the Alternator Bracket to the Frame. The Alternator has a ground Cable that runs to the Frame. The Body has a ground cable running to the frame.

    Solenoid: Coming off the Start side of the Solenoid is ONLY the battery cable going to the starter. Coming off the POS side of the solenoid is the POS Cable from the Battery, POS wire for the Fuse Panel with fusible link, the Output wire from the Alternator with Fusible link (this is the one I just added), and POS wire for the AC. The “S” post has the purple wire from the fuse panel. The”I” post has the White wire from the Ignition Module.

    Alternator: The Alternator has two wires coming off the output, one going to the “A” post on the regulator, and the new one going to the POS side of the Solenoid. The Stator wire goes directly to the “S” on the regulator. The Field wire goes directly to the “F” on the Regulator. Alternator has a ground lug and that cable that runs to the Frame ground lug.

    Ignition Module and Coil: White wire goes to the “I” post on the Solenoid. Red is Power. Green goes to NEG post of the Coil. The Purple wire in the kit labeled Tach is on the NEG Post of the Coil but I do not have a Tach so it is terminated under the dash. Orange, Purple and Black go the plug on the Distributor. I spliced into the Black and also sent that to the ground lug on the Alternator Bracket to make sure the Ignition Module and Distributor have a good ground. The Coil has the Pink wire from the fuse panel to the POS post of the coil and the Red wire from the Ignition Module to the POS post.

    Regulator: The “I” lug has the heavier gauge white wire from the fuse panel labeled Alternator Exciter. The “A” lug has the Other output wire form the Alternator with a fusible link. The “S” lug goes directly to the Stator on the Alternator. The “F” lug goes directly to Field on the Alternator. I added a capacitor to the “A” lug (it was on the original Regulator from the truck I pulled it from before buying a new Regulator). I think this is to store power for a radio clock. Nothing changes whether I plug or unplug it, so it’s not the problem.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  2. I would guess you have a bad diode in the alternator.
     
  3. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,903

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I've wired a number of rods with a variety of kits and with no problems, maybe i just got lucky. Never used an externally regulated alternator but the idea of the additional wire that you've installed late in the game going to the + on the solenoid when the other wire goes to the regulator just doesn't sit right. As i understand it these additional wires are a band aid as kits often don't have a heavy enough wire for the higher output alts. Internally regulated alternators are connected directly to the solenoid and i'm left wondering whether this isn't the source of the problem / misinformation? I don't see the wire you've put on in the Rebel diagram.

    Chris
     
  4. mustang6147
    Joined: Feb 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,847

    mustang6147
    Member
    from Kent, Ohio

    If you have a battery drain, Disconnect the negative terminal. Leave the positive attached to the battery. Take a volt meter, put the neg lead on the negative battery post, put the positive on the cable that is disconected, and read the volts..03 or so is normal, and you have a bad battery. If there is a draw, you will simply pull fuses till the volts drop, then thats the circuit with the problem.

    Factor in cab light while the door is open, or under hood light if you have one. ( you get the idea) your gonna need to pull the light bulbs. Pull the positive off the alternator first to see if the voltage regulator is stuck, as you pull fuses, leave them out incase you have more then 1 circuit with an issue.

    Thats the easiest way to figure it out.

    It may be the A/C switch for the clutch as well, if you have A/C....
     

  5. Dane
    Joined: May 6, 2010
    Posts: 1,351

    Dane
    Member
    from Soquel, CA


    What he said...
     
  6. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Added this:
    9. Disconnected both dome lights and it still lights the Test light.

    The Alternator and Regulator are brand new (Got a new one of each last month DEC 2012, trying to figure this out, but maybe the new ones could be the culprit).
     
  7. mustang6147
    Joined: Feb 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,847

    mustang6147
    Member
    from Kent, Ohio

    DOnt use a test light. Use a volt meter. You will not totaly put out the test light. Forget New or Old parts. Treat them all the same.

    Dont think it cant be this or that. Fact is Current is like water, its gonna flow, and its gonna take the easiest path.

    The test I showed will and always has fixed the issue for me and many others. but it takes a little time.


    I love that truck by the way....
     
  8. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    I added the wire additional Alternator Output wire after looking at every wiring diagram I could find. I talked to Bob From Rebel Wire and he confirmed that it has to be installed, even though the directions supplied don't specifically state it. Attached is one of the diagrams that shows both wires coming off the POS Output lug from the Alternator.

    In my mind, this is the Alternator or the Regulator is primary culprit because when I pull the wire that goes from the Alternator to the POS side of the Solenoid off, the test light goes out and the drain goes away. Of course, so does the charging. I am leaning towards either a Bad regulator or a bad alternator.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  9. Hi,
    how ya been man?

    The "exciter wire"[ if you want to call it that]coming from the alternator- should not be connected to the ignition switch's "Ign" nor "Bat" terminals.....
    It should be connected to the 'Accy" terminal of ignition switch ONLY.
    it also should not be connected to the solenoid's bat terminal either.
    That way it is recieving current [as an exciter wire] when car is running ONLY.
     
  10. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 722

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    The 10ga wire that has been installed is the main and only alternator on the truck.
     
  11. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 722

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    The exciter wire is connected to the accy bus bar.
     
  12. It's a rarity for me to work on a Ford power car,but when I do I always use a 1 wire GM alternator or a stock internal reg Gm unit, wired as I said above....
     
  13. :cool:One and the same,sounds correct to me.....




     
  14. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Mustang, I used the Multimeter also. It registers 12.43 constant draw. Pulled each fuse and the AC Power wire and it still shows it draining power. It only goes away when I pull the wire off the output post of the alternator, even if I keep the wire from the Alternator to the Regulator.

    I disconnected the Dome lights totally.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. BeefThunder
    Joined: Sep 7, 2011
    Posts: 42

    BeefThunder
    Member

    seconded, make sure the excite wire is in correct place on ignition switch, but the bad diode theory, is just as likely. it would allow current to back feed straight from battery through alternator as ground.......id say swap over to a si series delco 3 wire alternator.simple install, simple wiring, takes away all that regulator jazz, plus when wired corretly, it has load sensing ability, so say its putting out 13 or so volts at the alternator, but only 11v past ignition switch, it will see the loss and bump up the output.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  16. JohnnyC79
    Joined: Oct 16, 2011
    Posts: 16

    JohnnyC79
    Member
    from Australia

    Disconnect the regulator wiring from the alt, while leaving the B+ wire attached. Then do the test lamp check, if the lamp is still bright, then goes out when the B+ wire is removed, you have a faulty alternator, most prob a shorted diode in the positive plate. The alt will still work quite well with a diode shorted, just the voltage will drop a bit with all loads on. Saying it works doesn't mean it's not faulty. I've been an auto electrician for 16 years and this remains one of the most common causes of current drains that I see day to day.
     
  17. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Kenny, Ive been good. I still havent gotten the 34 finished. The Transmission went out within a month after I got it back from the chop. So I pulled it apart to start the finish work, work, got the fenders and hood ready for paint, then traded the 35 for the Model A and have been messing with the 28 and the 49 ever since. Once I sell the Model A, Ill get back to work on the 34.

    The Exciter wire comes from the fuse panel (from the ignition switch), and into the "I" lug on the Regulator. Bob said it's what tells the Alternator to turn on.

    I agree, I should have wired this one as a Chevy like I did my little 35 Ford PU. The reason I didn't is because when I originally wired the truck, I pulled the Regulator, Coil, Alternator, Solenoid, off a 91 F150 for free. In my efforts to discover I have a bad ignition module, I replaced each of these one piece at a time! If I didn't have those that were originally free to me until I got a new one for each (and were actually good working parts), I would've wired this one more like a Chevy.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  18. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Johnny,

    I put the test light back on (Cable disconnected from the Battery) and it lights up showing the drain.... Then I pulled the plug from the Voltage Regulator and the light went out! This is progress.

    So you think its a faulty alternator? Or is it a faulty regulator?
     
  19. mustang6147
    Joined: Feb 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,847

    mustang6147
    Member
    from Kent, Ohio

    your regulators contact are welded wide open. Or not properly grounded.

    It often happens when a dead battery is used, or a short circuit or a huge load from a short....


    Is it the pic or did you also have the negative touching the - post on the battery?
     
  20. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    The Negative Cable is not toughing the NEG Post in any of those pictures.
     
  21. I,m subscribed to this because electrics are a pain in the ass. Thanks for posting.
     
  22. dynahoe
    Joined: Sep 1, 2012
    Posts: 58

    dynahoe
    Member

    dirk35.when i wired my 67 mustang using newer charging system from a ford , i had to install a resistor inline in place of the facory idiot light.the regulator needs to see that resistance or it wil not charge.i can't remeber which terminal it goes to but ford was the only one i know of that did this.i've seen cars and trucks come into the dealer with no charging conditions caused by the dash lite being out.
     
  23. 24riverview
    Joined: Jan 13, 2008
    Posts: 1,052

    24riverview
    Member

    Assuming you're using a voltmeter in the dash? I've always wired them like a Ford without the indicator light.
    http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring diagrams/Ford/MWire5765-237.jpg
    A-constant 12volt source.
    S-switched 12volt source, you could move your excite wire here.
    F-field terminal on alternator.
    I-nothing on I
    No stator wire on alternator either. This has always worked for me but was long enough ago that it was a mechanical style regulator not the newer electronic style, not sure if that would make any difference.
     
  24. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    All....... thank you so much for your time, patience, and assistance! I finally got it fixed......

    And the Winner is.........

    Bad Voltage Regulator!

    I'm thinking that I might have burnt the 1st two by not having that additional wire from the Alternator output over to the POS side of the Solenoid (or directly to POS Battery Post), and once I finally put the wire on, the damage was done to the second regulator and it was sending the power right back to the alternator. I need to sit down sometime and take what I learned here and take the time to do a TECH Article for chasing wiring woes.
     
  25. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,615

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    And a 12.39 is not a fully charged 12V battery, not even close, more closer to 12.60. It makes a huge diff.

    "I verified the Battery is good. Charged it up and checked and it registered 12.39 volts, disconnected the NEG Cable and went to Dallas for a Change of Command Ceremony for 4 days. Came back and the battery registered 12.43."
     
  26. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Please tell me more.
     
  27. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,615

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    <TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=center border=1 cellPadding=5><TBODY><TR><TH>State of Charge</TH><TH>Specific Gravity</TH><TH colSpan=2>Voltage</TH></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>12V</TD><TD>6V</TD></TR><TR><TD>100%</TD><TD>1.265</TD><TD>12.7</TD><TD>6.3</TD></TR><TR><TD>75%</TD><TD>1.225</TD><TD>12.4</TD><TD>6.2</TD></TR><TR><TD>50%</TD><TD>1.190</TD><TD>12.2</TD><TD>6.1</TD></TR><TR><TD>25%</TD><TD>1.155</TD><TD>12.0</TD><TD>6.0</TD></TR><TR><TD>Discharged</TD><TD>1.120</TD><TD>11.9</TD><TD>6.0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html

    You were between 50 & 75 percent charged.................
     
  28. Commish
    Joined: Jan 9, 2010
    Posts: 379

    Commish
    Member
    from NW Ok


    Dirk, I read the whole post all the way through, and was going to tell you that it might be a diode in the alternator, but was probably the voltage regulator, and you already got it fixed. Good job.
    A couple of points that were not touched on, voltage regulator needs to be grounded good also, and don't ever grab the new one and just plug it on to the harness to test your theory, you will most probably fry the new one.
     
  29. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 31,174

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

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