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Calling all engine builders...Help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by rottenleonard, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. rottenleonard
    Joined: Nov 7, 2008
    Posts: 1,993

    rottenleonard
    Member

    So I picked up this fresh 289 short block, it had a set of 11:1 forged pistons, H beam rods and was all balanced. The former owner had put it together with a really radical cam and only ran it about 500 miles, then pulled it to put in a 347. When they pulled it apart they found that the cam bearings were getting wiped and replaced them with a harder surfaced cam bearing???(not something I'm familiar with) When I got it I put in an edelbrock performer hydraulic flat tappet cam with a liberal slathering of the supplied cam lube, Edelbrock aluminum heads and comp cams roller rockers. I installed a new stock style oil pump and pickup tube. After assembly I added comp cams break-in old additive to 30 wt oil and ran the motor on a run stand I built for 20 min at 2000 RPM, It sounded good and had Good oil pressure.
    I dumped the oil and found that it had a metallic shimmer to it, no shavings just the shimmer, I cut open the oil filter and found the same thing. I noticed that if a magnet was ran around the oil the shimmer would sort of react to it. I decided to change the oil and filter and run it again, this time I ran it about 20 minuets just at an idle. The oil pressure still read 50 lbs at an idle and everything still sounds good. So I dumped the oil and it again has this metallic shimmer, just not as bad.
    Should I be tearing into this thing, or just run it and see what happens?
     
  2. class 'A'
    Joined: Nov 6, 2004
    Posts: 346

    class 'A'
    Member
    from Casper,Wyo

    I think I would verify my oil clearances before I stuck it in something just to be sure.
    After 500 miles all the big wear metal should be starting to clear out.
     
  3. GeoZ1
    Joined: Jan 4, 2013
    Posts: 74

    GeoZ1
    BANNED
    from Illinois

    2000 rpm for 20 min is not a proper break in on the cam. Idle for another 20 is even worse for the cam. Read proper break in procedure on the cam instructions. Id be willing to bet you will lose one or more lobes on that cam.
     
  4. Thunderroad312
    Joined: Nov 18, 2012
    Posts: 158

    Thunderroad312
    Member

    I tell ya, with flat tappets any more its like playing the lottery. From what you desribe, I would say just run it and see what happens. I fail to see where you did anything wrong. You are at the mercy of the parts at this point. All fresh engines will show some metallic in the oil. With all the cam failures these days its always a Maalox Moment untill they are broken in. Consider yourself fortunate you made it through the 20 min breakin period. Eff it, drive that mother like you stole it and see what happens.
     

  5. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 23,753

    Deuces

    God, I love roller cams!....:rolleyes:
     
  6. rottenleonard
    Joined: Nov 7, 2008
    Posts: 1,993

    rottenleonard
    Member

    I gotta pull the pan to change it to a different one anyhow, I guess I'll Take a good look at the lobes.

    I was thinking a bit ago that the only thing that holds the roller rockers in their position is the guide plates, Is this right? While I purchased the correct length comp cams pushrods that were listed as being hardened I wonder if they could be getting chewed up.
     
  7. rottenleonard
    Joined: Nov 7, 2008
    Posts: 1,993

    rottenleonard
    Member

    With the shimmer reacting to the magnet I'm thinking it must be steel as bearing material probably would not react this way right? (wich would make sense with the good oil pressure) so cam wear would make sense or an issue with the valve train. ...Just thinking out loud.
     
  8. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 23,753

    Deuces

    Not sure what valve covers your using, but check the inside of the valve covers and make sure the roller rockers are not hitting....
     
  9. rottenleonard
    Joined: Nov 7, 2008
    Posts: 1,993

    rottenleonard
    Member

    I just cut apart the second oil filter and it looks like brand new inside. The second oil did not have near the shimmer as the break-in oil. I'll still give the cam a good inspection when the pan is off but mayby all is well we will see. This motor has to go in a car with absolutely perfect black paint and I do not want to do it twice.
     
  10. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,327

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    It's possible the "shimmer" was from the cam lube or break in additive.
     
  11. You did not assemble the lower end, who knows how clean it was after machining. You cannot see cam wear unless it is catastrophic. If I had it open I would look for anything obvious and other then that I would just make sure that everything is adjusted properly and drive it.
     
  12. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 8,443

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    ""2000 rpm for 20 min is not a proper break in on the cam""

    And what is?
     
  13. Grumbler
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 358

    Grumbler
    Member

    What I was thinkin....
     
  14. After properly priming the motor/oil pum (which can take a while, as much as 15-20 minutes on a Big Block Chevy before you see at all the rocker tips; Once the engine fires, immediately bring the rpm up to between 2,000 and 3,000. All camshafts in V-8 engines are splash-lubricated from oil whipped up by the crankshaft. Spinning the engine at these higher speeds for the first 20 minutes ensures sufficient oil reaches the cam lobes. We prefer to have the full exhaust connected so we can hear the engine while it's running to listen for any misfire or engine problems. This is a good time to double-check the ignition timing. Also, make sure engine rpm never remains constant for the break-in period. Engine speed should vary between 2,000 and 3,000 the entire time. This ensures oil reaches all points on the camshaft. Do not merely set the fast idle on the choke and walk away from the engine. Also, use this break-in time to watch for leaks or other problem areas and to monitor the coolant level and temperature. We like to use tap water for this first break-in period so it can be easily drained if there is a problem
     
  15. starliner62
    Joined: Nov 17, 2010
    Posts: 114

    starliner62
    Member

    The oil in every flat tappet engine I have built in the last couple of years looked like crap at the first oil change. I use plenty of cam lube on the lobes and lifters. It looks to me like the cam lube does not mix well with the oil and it really looks nasty when it is drained. I just did the second oil change on a 283 I built last year and the oil finally looked great.
     
  16. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,029

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    hotdoddon -

    What...?! You need a faster/more powerfull drill motor or you're doing something else weird..
    Any Chevy (or most others) I've put to gether have full oil withing a "few", no more thAn five minutes..
    Do you rotate the crank while the pump is being spun ? You really need to rotate the crank to align all of the main to crank shaft passages to fill all of the cavities/passages in the block, lifters, pushrods.

    I'd be worried if a full prime took 20 minutes...

    Mike
     
  17. rottenleonard
    Joined: Nov 7, 2008
    Posts: 1,993

    rottenleonard
    Member

    I did prelube with the valve covers off until I had steady oil flowing over the rockers. I did not vary the rpm though just ran up the idle screws, I'll have to remember not to do that although I would bet that millions of cams have been broke in just as I did, as it it used to be standard practice. The cam is splash lubricated and I doubt that varying the rpm has a lot of effect on the amount of oil that is being slung up to it, but it sounds like it may be a good practice anyhow(I would bet that a crank spinning at 2000rpm would throw plenty oil 20ft if the block wasn't there to stop it.)

    With that beings said I found the culprit, The supposedly hardened push rods from comp are wearing off on the guide plates, each has a trickle of very fine metal "dust" where they are contacting. I called them and they verified that the part number was for use with guide plates and suggested I just buy another set and hope for better luck:confused:. I haven't decided what I will do yet.

    Thank You for everyones suggestions, I wish I would have pulled the covers last night as I probably would have slept better, I hate when things go bad on someone else's money and I'm left holding the bag but thats the way it goes.

     
  18. Sure sounds like the cam going away to me.
     
  19. mustang6147
    Joined: Feb 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,847

    mustang6147
    Member
    from Kent, Ohio

    Everything you stated in your first post, is NORMAL ! that is why you run the engine and then drain the oil, give it a check over, then run it longer.

    LoL, next time you run it, try gentle accelerations from 1000 rpms to 1500.... to break the cam in, fact is, your fine !!! the shimmer of metalalic is the bearings seating and cam lube washing into the oil. I also break in with 10w30 then to 30hd.

    I have built many Ford race engines.
     
  20. steve185
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 59

    steve185
    Member

    My 2 cents would be to break in that small block ford on the highway, definetly not at idle. You should be concerned with seating the piston rings as well, which may not happen if it idles too long.
    steve
     
  21. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    It always scares me to get a motor assembled by someone else...too many bad experiences! But, it doesn't HAVE to be a tragic ending in your case, may simply be that you're seeing the graphite, zinc and other additives in the cam/assembly lube contaminating the oil...that is quite normal after a cam break-in.
     
  22. EVERY Cam manufacturer I have ever seen in my 40+ years of engine building has stated 20+ minutes at 2,000-3,000 RPM, varying the RPM, for a flat tappet cam. You just don't get enough oil splash at lower RPM's during the critical break in period for the cam. You might get lucky at lower RPM but you are more than rolling the dice.
     
  23. Well, I have not only seen this - But this is from Crane Cams and they seem to agree with me
    "Big Block Chevrolets have an oil-priming idiosyncrasy. When priming a Big Block Chevy with a drill motor and priming tool, it is often necessary to prime for as much as 20 minutes (while rotating the engine) to get oil to all of
    the lifters and rockers. It is advisable to prime these engines with the valve covers removed so you can check to see oil coming out of all of the rocker arms before firing the engine. This last step is advisable on all engines, but
    particularly on Big Block Chevrolets.
    "
     
  24. 61 chevy
    Joined: Apr 11, 2007
    Posts: 891

    61 chevy
    Member

    you said 50 lbs oil p at idle, that's sound high to me, must have good bearing
     
  25. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 12,594

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Maybe the push rods were only hardend on one end I have seen this but I guess the chance of all the push rods in upside down is not likly.
     
  26. Leonard, the SBF is notorious for very poor alignment regarding pushrods and aftermarket rocker arms and guide plates. Isky makes a set of adjustable push rod guide plates, this will end pushrod rub if you are experiencing that type of wear issue. These of course MUST still be used with hardened P/Rs, and I like to weld them once I set the alignment correctly. Welding is not mandatory, hope that helps, TR.
     
  27. Also, if you have 50 PSI oil pressure at idle, chances are good the builder installed a H/V oil pump. Try and find out if they used a hardened shaft to drive the pump- more than likely you will experience issues if they haven't, TR
     
  28. OR the HIGH PRESSURE pump. Which you really don't need!
     

  29. Yes, agreed and thank you, TR
     
  30. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,213

    sunbeam
    Member

    Be sure to run a zink additive
     

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