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Sunday rant (more like a cry for help for all of us...)

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by exwestracer, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. THE_DUDE
    Joined: Aug 22, 2009
    Posts: 2,601

    THE_DUDE
    Member

    Im 33, and Im tryin. Ive been at this since was 12. I'm doing ok. I allways want to do better. I take pride in everything I do. To me it is never good enough. All I can do is lean from my mistakes, and teach my sons by setting a standard. It starts in your home,with you and with the things you create.
     
  2. I Drag
    Joined: Apr 11, 2007
    Posts: 883

    I Drag
    Member

    Regrettably, I do not have time to hand carve aluminum eggs for free just because you think this is a good way to measure someones ability to appreciate craftsmanship for craftsmanships sake.

    If you prize free craftsmanship so much, please come to my house, where you will find endless projects you can undertake, doing the best possible job on each. You will make yourself so happy.

    Me, I need to get paid for my labor. And trust me, I dont get paid much.
     
  3. deto
    Joined: Jun 26, 2010
    Posts: 2,620

    deto
    Member

    Ding ding ding!!! You must be spoiled since you won't carve aluminum eggs out of a block with a file.
     
  4. 390kid
    Joined: Dec 29, 2004
    Posts: 641

    390kid
    Member

    becoming a craftsman is a journey. my best stuff wasnt my first stuff. ive been heavily into the hobby for close to twenty years. i know i havent peaked. but its the pursuit to do something better that drives a true craftsman. there are younger guys than me working on projects and building beautiful stuff. the bar in the custom car hobby is set very high right now imo, cars have full documentation on their builds now and thats a credit to this forum. 30 years ago you wouldnt see a car at a car show that you had seen piece by piece frame fab and sheet metal finished pics. if youre surrounded by crap try doing a better job of sterring the ship. the rr crowd may grow out of it. at least some of them maybe headed in the right direction
     
  5. I blame it all on the Microwave Oven!

    Before Amana brought out something called the Radar Range in 1967 that was the right size for home use, if you wanted to heat some food you needed to use fire and it took a little time to heat things properly. Then along came this new fangled contraption, and no longer did you have to wait 1/2 an hour for a baked potato, you could now cook one in 5 minutes. With that came a new culture of instant gratification, something I have been calling the "Microwave Society' for 30+ years now. We want it, and we want it NOW!
    This has caused frustration in our daily lives as we become accustomed to that level of gratification. And it spreads to every facet of life. Tankless water heaters where you don't have to wait for the water to heat up to take a shower. Overnight shipping instead of waiting a week or two. Instant messaging, email, texting - who the hell wants to wait for a letter! Look it up in a dictionary? Hell no, I have spell check (which many of you need to learn to use!)
    I don't think things like ADD existed before the Microwave Society came along. It is a mental condition caused by our, well, conditioning to the instant gratification.

    Why would I carve an egg out of Aluminium with a file, when I can program a CNC to do it in 1/1000th the time and make it perfect? We have created perfect instant world fantasy and the "Do it Shitty on Purpose" mentality is the counter culture to it! It is a by product and it is all the Microwave Oven's fault!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
  6. RTS1
    Joined: Jul 14, 2012
    Posts: 14

    RTS1
    Member

    I agree about the "younger" generation. I "used" to be able to work on my first '55 when I was 18 years old. Then, around the time I was 40, I decided it was time to "share" the work with my younger sons. Now, at 62, I decided that I am getting too old to do the work now, so I just pay to have it done by the "younger" guys. As for taking shortcuts when working on cars, isn't that what happened to the auto industry? Now everything we buy is foreign made!
    :confused:
     
  7. See page 2 for my point about that. If you still feel the same way, then this wasn't for you...
     
  8. Dog Dish Deluxe
    Joined: Dec 23, 2011
    Posts: 777

    Dog Dish Deluxe
    BANNED
    from MO.

    I think a big part of the problem is a general lack of IQ these days, especially in this country. You can't fix stupid and the fact is that most Americans fit that bill today and the number is growing at an alarming rate.

    Not trying to come across pretentious or say Im the smartest peanut in the turd, but I can't understand how all these stupid people manage to survive and re produce. It scares me.

    I'm 27 and have been fired from multiple body shops in the past for taking the pride to do things right and not just pumping them out the door. I may be a minority in my age group or generation but I think that quality is more important that quantity and with quality comes quantity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  9. I Drag
    Joined: Apr 11, 2007
    Posts: 883

    I Drag
    Member

    Well Ive looked and Im not sure I saw your clarification. For the record I also make most of my own stuff. I enjoy it, it saves me money, and possibly to your point; it gets done to my standards. I also use the most modern tools I have. I would definitely rough cut an aluminum egg with a saw before I just sat there with a hand file and went at it.

    I believe the crux of your lament is really just the result of the inevitable escalation of the specialization of labor in the modern world. Specialization of labor, or division of labor, is one of the key elements that allow modern economies to exist, and living standards to improve. In a primitive society, everyone farms their own food; in an evolved society, we get it at the market. If this is your point, this is inevitable.

    I too marvel at the works produced by dedicated craftsman seemingly without adequate monetary reward. Your example of the Taj Mahal is a good one. You might consider the jewel grinders zen-like artisans of the highest dedication. I do too, but I also call them something else: poor. For your information, India is still a vastly poor country. Jewel-grinding by hand is probably a great job in India. You assume these workers do this for self-actualizaion. Perhaps, and more likely, they are just Indian Joe-Blows, working for the paycheck and the weekend. It would indeed be difficult to persuade anyone from the US to do that job. I doubt you are booking plane tickets there.

    The truth is, it is easier to do great craft work when youre not killing yourself just trying to make a living, as most people are. Personally, I have tons of great works I would like to take the time to attempt. But I cant afford to just sit home without pay to do them. That modern society thing creeping in again there.

    And as long as I am working for someone else, my work will get done to their standards, which can be pretty shoddy sometimes. No I am not always happy about it, but my boss does not pay me to fashion the ultimate anything. Modern society.

    Sorry if I still did not get your point.
     
  10. hotrodbill
    Joined: Nov 25, 2009
    Posts: 27

    hotrodbill
    Member

    I will take your block of aluminum.
    Then I will sell it for scrap.
    I will use the money, and apply it to a newer, more efficient, more reliable, Japanese engineered egg, that comes with a warranty.

    Problem solved.
     
  11. Good point John. I agree that has something to do with it, but there are a lot of people out there who want to do things in a "traditional" way (methods), but don't care about doing it well.

    Don't get too hung up on the egg thing...it's more like a test of patience. It's much easier to say "I don't care" than put the extra time in. And yes, I understand about following the employer's lead... BOY do I ever....
     
  12. 55/98
    Joined: Mar 28, 2011
    Posts: 31

    55/98
    Member
    from washington

    All of this crap is said by every generation. when the young are old they will say whats wrong with the young people and thier shit,and on and on
     
  13. Jdeshler
    Joined: Jan 2, 2011
    Posts: 210

    Jdeshler
    BANNED

    Take the smart phone and Facebook away and 90% of the problem would be solved.. How the hell is a Internet site considered social?? Sure I have one but my nose dosent live there.. It lives here on the hamb:p
     
  14. deto
    Joined: Jun 26, 2010
    Posts: 2,620

    deto
    Member

  15. El Caballo
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 6,283

    El Caballo
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Its best to simply take the time to do things the right way and do it once. The right way may appear to be expensive, but its far better than paying twice to get it there. One thing that a good number of people do is sacrifice the important stuff for the fun stuff on a car; for example putting their money in mag wheels when the brakes need to be done. Priorities can be swayed by wants over needs.
     
  16. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hammer, meet nail...


    Those types are the virus we seek a cure for. Lately I have to get away from that and say fuck em. I have to hope that when they crash from the bad brakes, the only thing that gets hurt bad is the new wheels. I keep saying to my wife and friends the you can't save em all. In the end, this is OUR sandbox to play in. Most of the drivel that drove the creation of this topic and it's replies can be found at the weekly cruise night. You don't find it much at more organized gatherings. Those with high volumes like Autorama or GNRS might let a slap-fuck car slip in unawares at times, but for the most part the particpants recognize their peers and respect just being there as much as recognition for their efforts. You won't find a rat rod at Pebble Beach, but you will find a moron who looks at a surviving kustom and thinks it's just that. Kobayashi Maru...
     
  17. customcory
    Joined: Apr 25, 2007
    Posts: 1,831

    customcory
    Member

    In a weird way, the war on drugs made it where I was so poor by not being allowed to apply for a job without passing a pee test, {un-american}, that I had to figure out how to do things without money, That is a great motivater, no money. I had to build my own sandblaster, body rotiserre, engine stands, tools, etc. Since I had no money I built everything by hand from scraps. Thats traditional. Just pretend its the depression and do what your grandfather had to do. I guess the war on drugs made me smarter and tougher than somebody that buys everything with a credit card[you were rewarded}, but I don't brag about it. I just have all the stuff I built.Drug test my ass.And the more you do yourself, the better you get with it.
     
  18. OLDSMAN
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,422

    OLDSMAN
    BANNED

    This didn't sound like a rant to me. Just the plain hard facts. Unfortunately this problem starts at home, and then continues at school. As a 63 year old, I am glad that I will not be arounf long enough to see the total destruction of our culture.
     
  19. LSR 2909
    Joined: May 10, 2012
    Posts: 607

    LSR 2909
    Member
    from Colorado

     
  20. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    In the '20s and '30s you had farm kids with responsibilities, working room, and often not a lot of money. In the '40s Uncle Sam ran the biggest shop class in history and attendance was compulsory. Then those former draftees bought GI surplus at three cents on the dollar and screwed it together with their kids.

    Now...

    We've been urbanized. We've gone from the barn to the suburban garages of the '50s and '60s to condo developments where you're lucky to be able to even WASH a car.

    The engineering and technology has moved from the product to the manufacturing process. A normal '30s or '40s human could get his brain around every part in a '29 Model A; now, I've got fifteen-year-old 'old cars' in the driveway that have more parts in one wiring harness than in that entire A-bone. In 1960 you'd whip out the soldering iron to fix that appliance; now the whole thing was mashed together robotically in some Asian factory and damn few of even those who can figure out how to get the case open can do anything about troubleshooting the surface-mount components on the circuit boards. And, because of that robotic Asian manufacturing, the toaster that was $19 then is $19 now.

    Not only have we been densified out of our workshops, we've been legislated out of them. If I touch anything on the powertrain of any of those fifteen-year-old cars, I'd better know just what state and Federal laws I'm skirting.

    The skill set needed to take something interesting from A to Z has broadened, or at least changed, considerably. In 1950 you needed a VOM and a rotary switch, now you might need a working knowledge of Atmel microcontrollers. Would you rather have someone spend six hours hand-filing an aluminum egg, and eventually getting down to 3.5 hours with so-so repeatability, or spending that initial six hours in Solidworks and HSMworks so you can have as many as you want +/- .005 in twenty minutes of machine time (add another ten for setup) apiece? Yes, craftsmanship and the ability to 'just do stuff' matters, but so does picking the right tool for the job. The problem with that for the Average Joe, of course, is that a file is $10 but even a crusty old CNC-converted Bridgeport (or something newer and Chinese) with reasonable tooling and (legally-acquired) CAD software and hardware is going to set you back $10-25K even IF you have a place to put it. It's the same capital-investment issue, on a personal scale, that lets those Shenzhen factories crank out $19 toasters. But even at $20K it's a tenth of what that capability would have been two decades ago.

    We see on the HAMB a whole lot of very 'traditional' rods come out of very non-traditional tooling, whether from the builders or their suppliers. After all, even pop-rivets and MIG welding were WWII developments.

    For me, it's been thirty years of fiddling on my own dime to, now, almost get to the point in my skills I wish I'd been at back in the Reagan administration. And no, I had no clue back then I'd ever need or want those skills, but damn do I wish I'd put the time in at the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
  21. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I was given an opinion decades ago that stuck. "I think the difference in a good job and a perfect job is about 15min." We were speaking about finishing, but if you applied that thinking to everything...

    Sadly it's like that 15min has become more precious to more folks than it used to be. There's probably several out there who spend 15min/hr texting or facebooking. Maybe the rest of what it takes just to survive steals it from you. The patience and dedication to leave it until you can invest that 15min would go a long way when you really want it. There's a lot of dedicated and talented folks here, we're in the company of some living legends too. Maybe every post from the OP to this has been preached to the choir...
     

  22. Same here, but I did know of this place, I just fucked around anyways... I spent alot of time fucking around, but one day I got sick of it and decided I want to do all of the tings I have always wanted to, and the first was having a lightweight V8 powered car, and by the time I even had it on the road I had learned how little I really knew about cars.


    Alot of you guys that are older dont give young guys a second either. When I was 15 and went up to talk to anyone about their car, I got ignored. Almost 10 years later I understand why, kids ask you fucking dumb stuff about your cars, I get it with my OT ride all the time, but not every kid, and they all only really know what they have heard.
     
  23. roddinron
    Joined: May 24, 2006
    Posts: 2,676

    roddinron
    Member

    Yeah, that's what this country needs, more drug users!:rolleyes::eek::(:mad:
     
  24. Sounds to me like being a druggy is what made you dirt poor :eek:
     
  25. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    When I was about 12, I started washing parts and sweeping floors for a guy who built gas (Not "gasser", but gas class) and MP motors in a small shop beside his house. Guy was serious hot shit, and his name was on the front fender of a lot of pretty fast local class cars, as well as a lot of street racers.
    The first thing I was asked to do when I arrived was wash a small-block ford crank for a motor that was going together for a local street racer. I washed that crank like there was no tommorrow, because I had a pretty good idea of what was expected of me. Scrubbed the oil passages out with rifle brushes, and scrubbed on it for a long time. Took it over to him feeling pretty good. He handed it back to me, said "not good enough" turned his back and went back to what he was doing. The crank was already spotless, and I knew that. I ALSO had enough sense to know what he was up to. This process was repeated 3 times before he finally decided that I had enough determination and willingness to work through the stuff that was to come. If I didnt, he wasnt gonna waste his time on me. Most of the young guys arent gonna get what this has to do with the egg. But then, they wouldn't have washed a spotless crank 4 times either...
     
  26. Veach
    Joined: Jun 1, 2012
    Posts: 1,081

    Veach
    Member

    I have been an Instructor in a Prison for over 20 years now and it's real easy to lump all offenders together and say they are not worth a damn but by doing this you miss the ones that are trying.Thro the years I have seen just about every piece of shit you can name but if you work real hard not to lump them you run across one that you can get to and if you can get to him you have a chance to change not just him but everyone in his life.I have 15 people in my class if I can get to 3 or 4 I feel like I have did the best that I can.If I was to say I have 15 offenders in my class and lump them I could not get to those 3 or 4.Thats my 2 cents spend it on the ones you can get.Veach
     
  27. dont worry guys, cause here i am. though this is VERY true, the reason EVERYTHING made nowadays is a piece of shit is cause no one wants to take the time to build it right when a machine can do it ten times faster, pisses me off daily. the craftsmen is a dying breed. luckily i'm here trying to bring it back. but i'm the ONLY one that i know of that will sit down and spend a few hours working on whatever. just thought i'd jump in.
     
  28. mixedupamx
    Joined: Dec 2, 2006
    Posts: 513

    mixedupamx
    Member

    I have to agree with you for the most part but once in awhile you find a success story where you least expect it. about 10 yrs ago I had a young carp. apprentice that i thought would never make it. he was a sullen slacker who seemed to only want to slap things togther just good enough to get his check on fri. I used to ride him about quality work (the contractor did alot of high end trim/cabinet work along with regular framing and conc. forms&etc.) he used to call me the slave driver. he moved on to other contractors as did I and I didn't see him for 5 or 6 years but we recently worked together again on a large cabinet job. to my amazement he did super nice work even taking time to fix some less than stellar work one of the other guys did. one day I told him how good of a job he was doing and how nice his work looked and he said that the lessons I taught him had sunk in and thanked me for pushing him to do good work and care about quality. THAT FELT GOOD!:D
     
  29. Jim P
    Joined: Apr 27, 2005
    Posts: 239

    Jim P
    Member
    from Tyler, TX

    I am 37 now. When I was younger (20's) I didnt have an interest in the old ways or early iron. I was a muscle car / street racer kind of person. My father and his running buddies were of the early generation of hot rodders that had to make things work or adapt other parts. I guess in my late twenties I began to have an interest. Just as I matured to the point I was interested my father passed away. Most of his buddies that possesed similiar skills and knowledge of early trades or of early hotrod parts have passed on as well. The ones that are still around here are not interested in passing on knowledge.

    I hate to say it my education comes from youtube most of the time.

    The point I am trying to make is a lot of it has to do with maturity. I think even the older generation probably went through something similiar. I know it was funny that after pops had died I heard more stories of dad out racing his '34 roadster at night and the cops started just waiting for him at his house. The apple didnt fall far from the tree.
    Jim
     
  30. teejay99
    Joined: Sep 26, 2009
    Posts: 356

    teejay99
    Member

    My other hobby/interest is model railroading . Trains and cars are what make me tick .
    Model railroaders tend to be old farts ( like me ) but we really make an effort to get young people involved ...to "pass the torch " as it were . Most us us had trains as kids , got away from it for school-girlfriends-cars-jobs , and then got back to it in our 30's or 40's . Recognizing this , my circle of train nuts try to put the "hook" in young kids by having free open houses , free how-to clinics , you name it . There are few takers ...the PARENTS get interested but rarely their kids . The kids want cell phones-text machines and hand held computer games . It is what it is .
    Any of my buddy motor heads with kids and grand kids seem to be pissing in the ocean trying to get the kids interested in their cars . The kids will ride in them but don't want to get their hands dirty .

    I don't have an answer .

    T
     

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