Register now to get rid of these ads!

Factory standard shift for 60-64 Olds full size? I need some help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by F&J, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. oldspert
    Joined: Sep 10, 2006
    Posts: 1,263

    oldspert
    Member
    from Texas

    In 61 we were in Harlan Iowa on a pipeline job (my dad was a welder) and dad was looking at buying a new Olds. The Olds dealer there had a 61 bubble top with a four speed. had the long skinny stick, like the Chevy's had, so it must have been a Borg Warner and had to be factory installed. I was 17 and car crazy, wished he would have at least looked at it but he was looking for a family sedan.
     
  2. aerorocket
    Joined: Oct 25, 2007
    Posts: 488

    aerorocket
    Member
    from N.E. P.A.

    .

    I am almost certain that these new parts I have, were ordered from Olds for a 1961 car, the exact car that I showed the underdash picture of. Or maybe the parts you are talking about were discontinued and he bought what he could? Thanks for any input so far.[/QUOTE]


    F&J 63 not 61 may have been the year the pedals changed I'm not positive. Ask Jack Thomas if the 64 Jetstar 1 had power brakes as I think it did. I could be full of canal water though.
     
  3. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Olds had a 371 in 1957 and 58. In 1959 they came out with a completely redesigned engine, the 394. At the same time they made a 371 version of the new engine for base 88 models. Super 88 and 98 got the 394.

    The new style 371 was 1959 and 1960 only. The 394 was made from 1959 to 1964. Then was replaced by a completely new motor, the 330-350-400-455 series.

    So, there was a 371 in 57-58 then a new design 371-394 for 59-60 with the 394 continuing on until 64.
     
  4. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    I wish the hamber that worked for Olds R&D would chime in. He has put up high performance R&D info before. I thought he was Owen Thomas? or a name starting with Owen. I will look for him tonight.

    I was thinking that Olds must have had a 4 speed, at least available as COPO orders. Why the heck wouldn't they have? That was hot stuff on the GM and Ford hipo big cars, and there was a market. I wonder what bellhousing? Is it possible none of us have never seen a bell at a swap, or did BW make a 4sp trans case to fit the selector trans bell? Why has no one ever seen that trans, if true?




    I wonder if that is why the Hollander list posted earlier shows same flywheel for 57 to 60 (i think that was it). Then could that mean that the new 371 can't use a 394 wheel? And if so, why does Hollander show a 61 only and a 62 only F'wheel?


    This thread is getting to have a lot of info for future reference on hamb. Thanks for all the posts.

    I took pics today of earlier clutch pedal setups from 50 through at least 57, and will post up some tech tonight. It may be useful for someone at some point. These are pedals that go through/under the floor, not swing type, but share some pieces.
     
  5. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    1962 and 63 I worked for the Cadillac-Olds dealer in San Jose, 'St. Claire Motor Co.'
    I kept an eye on used car trade-ins, always looking for a clean Olds: Stick especially.

    The latest stick Olds I ever saw was a '58 '88', never one later.
    This is the first I've heard of 3-speed stick Oldses post-'58.

    Interesting thread!
     
  6. O.Hove
    Joined: Feb 12, 2006
    Posts: 772

    O.Hove
    Member Emeritus
    from S.D.

    I have a 63 with factory 3 speed ,column shift.
    I also have a neal nice 64 Convert,with a bad automatic.
    Both are for sale
     
  7. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Thanks for the input. Yes, I was not aware of all this either. A long time friend who was in retail auto parts business forever, and also an Olds nut, told me the newest one he ever saw was driven by a route salesman that sold to his place: "a 59 stripped 2dr coupe, w/3 on column"

    Last summer, I chased down a C/L ad an hour from here, for a "bronze mounting bracket and a few other pieces of an Ansen/Olds selector shifter". Turns out he bought that and many other goodies new, back in the 50s and very early 60s for his Olds powered cars.

    Take a look at pic #1. The bronze cast bracket is one I have never seen before, the typical Ansen selector shifter mount is bent mild steel. This one says :OLS 51-59. I thought that proved the selector was all done after 59, until I read more on hamb then. I think this piece was cast in 1959, and that's why it says 51-59. I am now thinking the steel version is newer and did not break like this one did.


    Here are 2 pics of 50's to early 60's lower Z bars. The middle pic is showing the small brackets that bolt to the starter lower half bell. The heavy steel 3 bolt one, I think must be 1950. Note that the one in the middle(1957) and the one on the right(1960s), are thin spring steel. I think this gave more flexability as the motor moved. I do have 1950 bells, but not a 50 starter half bell; I'll bet they are the ones that have 3 tapped holes for that. All the others I have only have 2 holes and one blank spot for the 3rd.


    In the pics you can see a short, thick bracket. That is what is bolted to the chassis, to use as the outer Z bar pivot. That one is 60s, and I would think the other years would be very similar.
    3rd pic shows the lower Z bars. The one with the pedal is all 1957. The new black one is for the 60's which I just found. The other is unknown year, and while it looks the same as the 57 one, the longest arm that goes to the pedal is welded at a slightly different angle. Most likely the older chassis/body style, compared to the 57.

    That 1960's one has 2 forks for springs, the others do not, because those go with direct links to the underfloor pedals. When the pedal became a swing type, they must have needed the 2nd over-center spring to help push the clutch, IMO.


    You could most likely modify any one of these types for whatever year you are doing a stick swap into.


    Last 2 flywheels pics shows front and back of the 394 flywheel that Tony ID'ed for me. Note the multiple holes?? ... and the balancing divots cast into the back. It is the one on the right. The left lower is 54-56 Olds, the upper is 6cyl Olds.





    We'd like to see some pics of all the stick details :) ...and it sure might help you with your "needs" :D.

    Thanks for proving there is a 63 out there with a factory stick.:cool:
     

    Attached Files:

  8.  
  9. owen thomas
    Joined: Jun 15, 2008
    Posts: 186

    owen thomas
    Member

    The “60-64 Olds factory stick” 3-speed was a Buick transmission. I don’t know about the 88 and 98 after ’64. I had a 1965 442 that had a Muncie.

    The 1950 Olds V8 manual transmission was the old Cad-LaSalle. Great transmission. If I remember correctly, it wasn’t offered with the V8 in 1949. From 1951 on, the Olds used a Buick 3-speed manual transmission (called a synchromesh by engineers and old timers). When Buick decided to quit making the manual transmission, Olds bought 4,500 of them, and they were stored wrapped in a rust-preventative paper. I remember initially some of these were stored on the roof of Building 64, the old Engineering Building for a while, then somewhere else indoors. When they got an order to build a manual job, they had to go and get a trans. The only reason Olds offered the manual was to offer a lower base price car, and very few were actually built.

    There were two versions of the Buick/Olds transmission, the regular and a version for commercial vehicles, such as a hearse or ambulance. The commercial version had a longer tail shaft and different ratios. I had one in my ’56 Olds 2-door for a while circa 1962 (while I was working in Olds Experimental). Good trans, but shifting was a bitch with the Buick – two levers, for and aft and in and out. I made a floor shifter (at work of course) that did the cross-shift by pushing the shifter down.

    We first used the BW 4-speed in the F-85 Cutlass. Nice package, that car. The first 4-speeds in the big cars were Borg-Warners, maybe around 1964 models. Maybe 1963. We couldn’t get them to hold up because the Olds was a heavy car and the standard manual transmission rear axle was a 3.64:1. Pontiac was using the same BW but with a lighter car, a 4.10 or 4.30 axle, and an engine that didn’t have the low-end torque of the Olds. We tried everything with the BW – widest gears we could get in there, different heat treat, but they still broke…but you could buy one. Then came the Muncie, my favorite.

    BTW, all of the Olds race cars (NASCAR) that I saw had the 3-Speed. Maybe someone could check Lee Petty’s Daytona winning ’59 Olds (first Daytona on the new track) and see if that’s a manual or H-M. Might be a H-M. I remember Olds made 5 engines for Lee, and he came up and worked with the engineers running them on the dyno. Olds gave him anything he wanted. Made the parts and gave them a part number to be legal.

    Olds didn’t have ‘COPO’ cars or parts like Chevy, but you could get just about anything if you knew the right people. Check some of my earlier HAMB posts.

    Olds did have assembly manuals. They were made for the assembly plants with all of the info to assemble the car. These were much better than the Chevy assembly manuals. The Olds manuals had fold out layout drawing of lots of the assemblies. I gave a 1961 Assembly Manual to the Reo Olds Museum a few years ago. Shouldn’t have done that, they didn’t appreciate it. Not nice guys at all. I think they were more interested in Reo stuff. If you’re anywhere near Lansing, you might be able to copy the info you need.
     
  10. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Owen, thanks for stopping by;)

    The hamb is also a museum of sorts, as far as hands on experiences. It really is important to save what info the many members have.

    I have always enjoyed reading about your work with GM....and about the little street racing against the Pontiac engineers :D Thanks again.
     
  11. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member


    It takes me awhile to think about things :D The statement about Buick giving up the making of the stick trans, prompted me to go look at 2 Std trans gasket sets I have.

    The McCord set is very old and it's application seems a bit off, with 57 being the last year Olds that it would fit?, but does show it to fit up to 60 on Buick.

    Next is a slightly newer Felpro set with dates as high as 62, but as the company address does not have a zip code, that would mean this is older than a 1965 manufacture date.

    But that Felpro set gives the info, sort of, that Owen just stated about Buick selling off the surplus transmissions to Olds.. When? 1960...If you look at the applications on the Felpro, you can see Buick stopped after the 60 model, yet Olds continued to 62. this package may date to 62, and could be why it does not mention a 63 or even a 64 like Jacks car was.

    But it does makes sense that those 4500 surplus transmissions covered Olds' small sales demand for sticks through the 61 to 64 period?


    I have never seen a 58-or later trans, to know if anything is different from the 57 one I have, The 57 differs from the older ones, in that it has a bolt-on rear yoke to go with a new 2-pc driveshaft.

    Interesting stuff IMO, including the gasket info, that traces that transmission's history back to the 36 Buick.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. young'n'poor
    Joined: Jan 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,281

    young'n'poor
    Member
    from Anoka. MN

    I have no info to add and can't see needing any in the future, but i love geeking out on threads like this. F&J, please make sure you keep this thread going as you find more info!
     
  13. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Young'npoor, there is only so much I can do. Maybe I can try to learn the Olds Wiki site that seems to be a GM Corporate history site? with some parts manuals? I need some spare time for that. But in the meanwhile, it's great that so many hambers have said what they saw or owned back then, and now we also have Owen who was in Olds R&D. His post came in at midnight last night and might get lost on page 2, so here it is again:

     
  14. 57J2
    Joined: Dec 13, 2008
    Posts: 142

    57J2
    Member

    Included is a scan of the 61 Olds service manual with the clutch pedal setup. It shows the 3 speed as the only manual transmission available . In the 63 manual it shows a 3 or 4 speed as options.
    Image.jpg
     
  15. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member


    Thanks for the pic and also, the info on a 4 speed in 64.

    Well, I'd bet any hardcore Rocket guy reading that, is wondering what bellhousing Olds used on the 4 speed, or how a 4 speed typical input shaft length could reach the pilot bushing in the 394 crank.


    Time for me to study that pic, thanks;)

    **Edit; Thanks a bunch for that scan, as I was wrong about one of the springs being a light duty. Both are listed as "overcenter" and they both were in that same box. The upper clevis that I am missing shows it is made from round stock with a simple slot. I can make that easily. Now I just need a car to put this stuff into :) Some guys like old speed parts, but these parts make me just as happy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  16. Vampyr
    Joined: Jun 29, 2012
    Posts: 1

    Vampyr
    Member

    I didn't see this question in any of the other replies, is your crankshaft drilled for a pilot bearing?? I have a Flywheel and pressure plate from my '62 394 that I'll sell you. I also have for sale a 1937 LaSalle top shifter trans. They have really long tailshafts, so that could be a problem. The selector shift trans is hard to find and there is no floor linkage made for them to my knowledge. I had that trans in a '52 olds I had 42 years ago. It had homemade floor linkage for a stockcar. It was made of 3/8 or 1/2 pipe elbows and T's. It worked great, the only issues was the H pattern was backwards. Your other choice is get a bellhousing from Ross Racing and put a Chev 4 speed or a 5 speed Tremec behind the 394.
     
  17. Charlie Jones
    Joined: Apr 3, 2009
    Posts: 66

    Charlie Jones
    Member
    from Apopka FL.

    I scanned these from my 1963 Olds parts books, hope this helps.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Thanks a bunch, Charlie. It has good views of the clevis and the brake pivot pin that are missing. I really needed a good pic of that pivot. I have everything else including even those felt washers.

    Now, to find a car to swap them into. Looks like 64-down to at least 61 is the same, maybe 59 is when they switched from the older under floor pedals.

    I don't want to sell the parts, I want to try a std shift swap :)
     
  19. Charlie Jones
    Joined: Apr 3, 2009
    Posts: 66

    Charlie Jones
    Member
    from Apopka FL.

    Looks like you may need a brake pedal too. Or at least a lot of "re-engineering"!
     
  20. Charlie Jones
    Joined: Apr 3, 2009
    Posts: 66

    Charlie Jones
    Member
    from Apopka FL.

    Here's a few scans of the brake parts too, if they help.
    I going to do a 4 speed conversion myself on my 63 Dynamic 88 two door hardtop. I'm gonna take the easy way out and use Pontiac pedals though.
    Besides, I get to keep my power brakes. The last pic is the Pontiac stuff which is available new from Fabcraft Metal Works.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. swe64
    Joined: Nov 22, 2010
    Posts: 415

    swe64
    Member

    a company i texas sell new pedals and z-bars to pontiac 1961-1964 big car FABCRAFT i dont kow if it fit cars are olmost the same you have to ask her is pictures of my 1963 catalina
    no power brakes
     

    Attached Files:

    • 005.JPG
      005.JPG
      File size:
      262.1 KB
      Views:
      218
    • 006.JPG
      006.JPG
      File size:
      268.1 KB
      Views:
      246
    • 008.JPG
      008.JPG
      File size:
      278 KB
      Views:
      212
  22. willowbilly3
    Joined: Jun 18, 2004
    Posts: 4,356

    willowbilly3
    Member Emeritus
    from Sturgis

    The newest one I owned was a 57 J2 but I knew a kid who had a 63 with factory 3 speed on the column when I was in college.
     
  23. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    I like reading all this; always wondered what Pontiac used.


    Charlie. do you have your brake pedal to look at? I can't see the underdash pic that I put up very well, to compare with your parts scans that show the standard shift type brake pedal.


    Is the brake pedal difference in the longer pivot tube pipe, that is welded at the top of the pedal?
     
  24. flat 39
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 267

    flat 39
    Member

    When I was a kid, my Dad traded his '51 Merc for a '60 Olds. We test drove one with a "3 on the tree". My dad said it shifted hard so he bought his first automatic.
     
  25. Charlie Jones
    Joined: Apr 3, 2009
    Posts: 66

    Charlie Jones
    Member
    from Apopka FL.

    I don't have a manual brake pedal, only a parts book.
    The pivot tube pipe should be the same, as the support bracket #4.648 is the same whether stick or automatic. Maybe you could mount the clutch pedal beside the auto brake pedal?

     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2012
  26. petritl
    Joined: Jul 31, 2006
    Posts: 949

    petritl
    Member
    from Marion, TX

    Here are pictures I recently found of the 1965 Oldsmobile Starfire I owned with a factory 4spd. The factory crudely cut away a large hole in the trans tunnel to make room for the shifting linkage and used a stamped steel plate (sheet metal screwed in place) to cover the rough opening.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  27. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member


    The NOS support bracket I found in the box of parts, is std shift only. It ties the firewall to the dash. The pic I put up of an underdash of a 61 Olds 98 A/T, shows a simple, very small A/T brake pedal bracket that only bolts to the firewall. It looks like that small one gets replaced by the long one I have,

    I'll get the A/T brake pedal to work, if I get a car to try it on.
     
  28. Charlie Jones
    Joined: Apr 3, 2009
    Posts: 66

    Charlie Jones
    Member
    from Apopka FL.

    My bad! I didn't look at the parts listings. Olds designed 3 different brake pedals every two years for these cars. Stick, auto without P/B, and auto with P/B.
    It seems incredible that Olds and Pontiac would each design different clutch linkages. When the percentage of production was so low(4% maybe?)and they use the same basic body.:confused:
    I guess diversity in engineering really was the word back then!

     
  29. NAS Backyard
    Joined: Aug 11, 2009
    Posts: 143

    NAS Backyard
    Member
    from Lodi CA

    This subject is right down my alley. A guy over on www.bangshift.com posted these to my 61 Olds thread. His friend owns this car up in WA. state. drool is what I initially did.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  30. NAS Backyard
    Joined: Aug 11, 2009
    Posts: 143

    NAS Backyard
    Member
    from Lodi CA

    What I have found so far is if you want stock, find another complete car for parts because there are alot of parts specific to the manual trans cars . However as you may have discovered everything is as rare as BO's real birth certificate. If your modifying and your going floor shift then you may as well upgrade the trans to 4,5 or 6 speed. Until Tony at Ross told me he had OD auto trans for 394's i was all over the manual conversion. I don't know if Ross has a manual kit but Bendtsen's does www.transmissionadapters.com. They can drill the bellhousing for any trans. As far as the pilot bushing issue, doesn't look like a huge obstacle to overcome. Heres a pic of a 394 crank.
    [​IMG]
    Since i have Power brakes i was going to use a hydraulic clutch with a Tilton clutch pedal that has the slave mounted on the inside under the dash. I was going to switch out the pedal pads to match. I already have a floor shift steering column and i got a Starfire only floor shift only, driverside manifold which shoots strait back.
    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.