Hello I have been using my MIG welder for a while, and have been REALLY wanting to learn TIG.... well the opportunity to trade a "scratch-start" TIG welder for some model A parts kinda came up, and I was wondering what people's opinions on them were. I heard they are harder to learn, but I'm willing to dedicate a LOT of time to it so... yeah tell me what you think! thanks in advance! Joe
Tig welding is awesome and with some practice & eye hand coordination you can turn out some nice welds. My experience with a scratch start miller max star sucked. I'll gladly spend the additional $ for a foot pedal. Once that electrode touches the metal the next time it moves the arc has started. Now if you sneeze, twitch, or realize you have to adjust your parts etc, the arc will start helmet up or down your welding. The control of the foot pedal is the way to go. Just my $.02 worth
thanks guys!!! the thing is I'm only 16 and I'm on a pretty tight budget, so I don't really think I can afford the real thing.... thanks again!
You have to start somewhere and a scratch start will get you some experience if you don't have the money right now for a bigger machine.
By HF he mean "high frequency". Not a necessity, but, a nice luxury that will definitely help you when it comes to doing aluminum.
all a scratch start tig basically is, is a arch welder with a tig torch on it. you can buy a tig torch, hookup the lead to the negative side of your arch welder, and the positive side to your work(pretty sure thats how it is, i know it seems odd) then run the gas line to your inert gas tank. the gas will be on all the time, so if you wanted to save on the gas, buy some sort of electronic switch for the gas, and then use that with a foot switch. actually, you might be able to convert a battery seliniod to run the welding cable too. you could make the switch both turn the negative lead on as well as the gas. that be the ultra cheap way, but i guess you could ust save up and buy a small used tig machine. as someone stated before also, you wont have heat control so you will really really need to know your heat settings before you weld(youll need to practice on some things first) then you will need to keep a good rhythm and speed! BUT i will say, if you get good at doing it this way youll be one damn good tig welder when you go to an expensive machine! heres an example of the valve(after your regulator) http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASCO-Red-Ha...740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4166fd517c
Scratch start machines are a great way to start your welding experience, when you work up to a larger more adjustable & precise machine the skills you have aquired will make the new machine really sing because you will realize how much better that machine is, gotta start at the start! Wayne
Joe scratch start CAN work just fine. The panel below was made by Contour Autocraft in the UK and that is all they use (and teach with on their courses). At least that was the case when I was there. There are 11 or twelve welds (all fusion welded) in there - I could only find half of them...... All the other stuff is great to have, but you definitely don't NEED it. Like Johnny says, it'll make you better when you can step up one day - going the other direction would be a lot tougher//
'Scratch-Start' can mean anything, i have one of the finest TIGs' ever made and i guess it is 'scratch-start' so maybe if you told us what the actual machine is we can give you an informed opinion.
Since you are only 16 and on a tight budget, go with what you can afford. It is nice to see a young man wanting to take up welding rather than a keyboard or a game controller, Kudos to you bud good luck.
I use a Fronius portable Inverter for TIG, scratch start, no pedal. Its very hard to get perfect, but I think its taught me to be a pretty decent welder. I think its a great way to learn, teaches you to consider heat buildup, speed, feed angle and ten other variables all at once, with no time to stop or slow down ! Im going to rule when I can afford a HF pedal machine!
not sure what machine you are dealing with, but i use a miller on scratch start and never have problems with it. it has a foot pedal hookup for more control, but most of the time when im in the field i just scratch it.
TIGs were ALL "scratch-start" at one time. So that makes the process "traditional", right? Go for it. Get in touch with someone who knows how to run one that way. If you don't know what you're looking at in terms of puddle size, etc.; you're going to struggle getting good welds.
I've only TIG welded aluminum, guess Heli-Arc is more of a proper term back in 1970-84, I LOVED IT. Cast aluminum to Bugatti sheetmetal it was fun. I learned to gas weld first, can stick weld also. I don't understand MIG at all, the concept it totally different to me uncontrolable gobs that you spent more time grinding away. I'd love to have a chance to TIG steel. People say if I can TIG aluminum I should be able to TIG steel. Some day I'll get a chance and report back. Bob
Beat me to it! Learning without the pedal may actually be easier, you have to concentrate on feeding the rod , moving the puddle and being consistent, with one constant amperage. The footpedal is just a crutch, although a nice one at times. Most of the pipe you see hanging in the air (if it was heli-arced) from years ago was done with just the setup you describe. There is a thumb control rheostat out there that is way more difficult that a footpedal, IMHO. Buy the machine, get some instuction and then PRACTICE! Welding is about 20% know-how and 80% practice. Good Luck!
As a welder in the field in Industrial construction and maintenance we used (and still do for the most part) scratch start CC (Constant Current) welding power sources for all our TIG work on pressure piping and pressure vessels. I did that for many years and only in some fabrication shops did we use the high frequency start equipped machines with a foot pedal. Lots of very good and precision welding is done with a simple scratch start TIG torch hooked up to a basic stick (SMAW) welding power source. This is true for carbon steels and stainless steels ,of course for aluminum you need the AC power source with high frequency. Now I have a Miller Diversion 165 in my garage that with the high frequency start and foot pedal has spoiled me to some degree, but there is nothing wrong with a basic scratch start TIG machine to learn with and even to work with as long as you understand what it is capable of and it's limitations. One thing to watch out for on a machine like that is minimum welding amperage output. Some of the machines will have a 30 amp minimum, meaning they will not put out less than 30 amps of welding current. The small 150 Amp Miller Maxstar is an example. That machine will weld scratch start Tig with a torch hooked up but the minimum amperage of 30 amps is too hot for some small work and thin metal. Machines like the Diversion on the other hand will start at 5 amps of welding current and go up from there. So as you can see thin metal is easier. Things to consider to be sure.
The other guys covered pretty much everything else, I would only add, you will be learning "the hard way" and it is important to not get discouraged. Keep at it, and don't give up. It will add to your skill set immensely!
wow thanks guys!!! thats a TON of help, I am gonna try to call the guy with it today and see if I can give you guys more info on it! thanks, Joe
I tried the scratch start first and then bought a Miller 180. It was worth every dime for the HF start and amperage control.
What A parts are gonna be traded? maybe the parts are worth more than a worn out scratch machine. You would be alot happier with a machine that has a pedal, can do ALOT more than a scratch start tig.
in the early 90's i worked at a plant that had a dayton hf unit on the arc welder and it worker great! only drawback was the torch would get hotter than hell and thats when i realized how essental a water cooled torch was. your hand would automatically open up from the heat and drop the torch thats how hot it got.
I learned on scratch start. I wish I had known about scratch start a long time ago but I thought TIG was some exotic welder at the time.. oh well... any way this is what i learned on.. a mid 70's Lincoln IdealArc 250.. smooth as butter on both tig and stick(smaw)... Oxy/Ac welding is also very similiar to scratch tig...
the parts are definitely worth more than the TIG, its a nice coupe body that I might be trading for some cash, and some parts. But that sill wasn't worth the coupe body so I was thinking maybe he could include the old scratch-start to fill the void. Thanks, Joe
Get a gas welding set-up if you want to learn. Then you will have a tool you can still use later on. Then buy a TIG down the road.
A big issue with a scratch start is tungsten contamination. The process guarentees you always have a contaminated tungsten. For some jobs that's not a big deal. At the other extreme, it's completely unacceptable.
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