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Projects Alienbaby17's Model A Truck Project

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Alienbaby17, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. Hot Rod Michelle
    Joined: May 3, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    Hot Rod Michelle
    Member

    Totally! Toto! I am probably gonna miss it too...but, for now... I'm ready to jettison up north.
     
  2. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Front end stuff:

    With the front brakes mostly out of the way I decided the next logical step would be to move onto the steering.

    I've managed to get most of the front end together. One thing I neglected to mention earlier was the front axle. I bought an original Model A axle dropped four inches by Joe's Speed Shop. The axle is a beauty. I feel like I need to mention that Joe was very helpful to deal with and even went so far as to suggest the axle I originally tried to order wasn't what I really wanted and instead pointed me to a better option for what I was doing. Much thanks to Joe for the guidance, fast service and excellent product. You can check his website out here:
    http://www.joesspeedshop.com/default.htm

    [​IMG]

    Okie Joe 4" dropped Model A axle

    I also split my first set of wishbones. I thought this was kind of a hot rod building, 'rite of passage' so I had to give it a try. I bought a wishbone splitting 'kit' from Speedway. The kit included a pair of weld-in bungs and a set of tie rod ends and jam nuts. I had read a few reviews of the kit I bought that said there might be some fitment issues when using this kit with Model A wishbones. The concern is that the bungs are a little loose when installed in the Model A bones. I found this to be the case even when I cut them on the yoke side of the main weld. I had to do a lot of filing to remove the weld penetration from the inside of the radius rods. Maybe I ended up taking just a little too much off. The fit could have, and maybe should have been a little better but I welded the bungs in and will give them a shot. If it doesn't work out I have a spare set of bones to re-try. Right now I have the bones installed on the axle and frame mounts and the frame mounts c-clamped roughly in place on the chassis.

    [​IMG]

    Split radius rod with Speedway bung inserted and ready for welding.

    After considering the advice of several far more experienced people I opted to order the "deep drop" Chassis Engineering bolt-on steering arms. I had borrowed Beau's set of Speedway 1 3/4" drop steering arms to check for wishbone interference. They absolutely would not work. I ordered the deep drop CE steering arms and they were a great fit. The CE arms are about double the cost of most of the aftermarket arms but I felt like their superior quality justified the extra expense. The arms are forged and a bolt-through design rather than the internally threaded models. This just seemed like a much better design to me. I was a little surprised that the steering arms didn't come with any mounting hardware or instructions but they were fairly simple to figure out. Ten dollars worth of hardware later and they were on. That is once I cut off the extra mounting hole for cross-steering and painted them.

    [​IMG]

    Steering arms post "surgery". It seemed a shame to cut up perfect, brand new parts but it had to be done.

    One additional note on the F1 spindles. As I was thinking about the $120 bucks I spent on the steering arms it occurred to me that I might have been better off with a pair of original '37-41 passenger car spindles with original modified steering arms. I say this because even though the F1 spindles were basically free with the F1 brakes that savings vanishes when you have to buy expensive steering arms to use with them. I don't regret doing it the way I did, it just might have been simpler with the other spindles. Just a thought. I also won't neglect to mention this idea had been previously suggested in this thread. :rolleyes:

    Once I had the steering arms installed I was able to measure for a tie rod. I bolted some wheels onto the front end and got out the tape measure. I positioned the front wheels so that they were visually as straight as possible and then used the tape measure to assure that the front of the tires were the same distance apart as the back. Once I had that done I measured the distance between the center lines of the steering arm tie rod end holes. In my case the distance was 47.5". According to the Speedway catalog the assemblies (tie rod, tie rod ends and jam nuts) are adjustable 1/2" shorter or 3/4" longer from their pre-assembled sizes. The closest size they had to my measurement was the 48" assembly. Figuring I could bring it in half inch would put me exactly at the 47.5" I was looking for. In reality, once I installed it I found that it maybe could stand to be another 1/2" or so shorter. The wheels look pretty 'toed-in' right now and the tie rod ends are adjusted all of the way in. I may end up taking a little off of both sides of the tie rod but I'm going to wait until I have everything else set up and the weight of the body and drivetrain in place before doing anything. The Speedway part # I used was 91632504. As always the Speedway delivery time was amazing!

    [​IMG]

    The next thing I think I need to do is to set the cab and box onto the chassis. I need to see where things are going to fit so I can figure out the rear axle setup.
     
  3. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    Looking good.

    I gotta agree, the F1 swap was probably not the way to go. But, some people still use the drop arm with the early spindles, and the inner brakes parts are still cheap and easy to get locally. Plus it was SO MUCH FUN RESEARCHING! Drums on the other hand....

    Lookin good man.
     
  4. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Found these pictures online and have been and will be using them for lots of reference. I'm sorry that the way I saved them won't allow me to give credit to the original people that posted them.

    I'm including them here for people so that they can use them as a resource without having to hunt all over online for them.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I've found them to be pretty helpful.
     
  5. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 9,174

    manyolcars

    Your picture does not show self adjusters. You can use the Ford parts from 1967 or 68 and newer. They pop on easily and you dont have to adjust shoes ever again.Some guys on this forum think they dont mind adjusting the shoes manually but I have more important things to do since I have many ol cars.
     

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  6. GonzoMN
    Joined: Jun 16, 2007
    Posts: 428

    GonzoMN
    Member

    Damn, I have to pay attention more. Very cool Jay!
     
  7. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Thanks, Scott.

    This is what happens when Beau shows up at your place with a 12 pack on a Friday night.
    Things that must be done get done.:D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It was a pretty good feeling (outside of the one I was already having from the Grain Belts) to actually get the body up on the chassis. It took about 4 beers for Beau to convince me it was a good idea and the right time to make this happen and I'm glad he did. We even got both of our ladies to lend a hand even though it was after 10 at night and we were getting eaten by mosquitoes. That's a pretty good 'litmus test' of if you have a good lady right there.;). Both obviously passed!:D

    Since that night I've kind of poked at it a little but have been pretty busy with one of my other cars. I have looked at it enough to know that there are some complications I sort of anticipated but still don't have really good solutions too and will be looking for advice...soon. For now I'm just enjoying the view.
     
  8. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    Looking good!
     
  9. Evilfalcon1961
    Joined: Dec 22, 2007
    Posts: 434

    Evilfalcon1961
    Member
    from Ma

    do you have a reverse eye spring in the front as well? how much was the axle ? thanks!
     
  10. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    It's not a reverse eye spring up front. I was worried it would be lower than I wanted so I bought the standard eye spring.

    The axle was $250.
     
  11. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    I am looking for some help and advice.

    I'm not in a hurry to build this but I'd like to have the chassis done or at the very least in "roller" condition before things slow down for the winter.

    I'm at the point now where I need to figure out the rear suspension. This is what I need some help with.

    Here's where I'm at. I have a 9" Ford axle out of a 60's Bronco I'm planning to use for the rear differential. I also have an original Model A rear spring I'm planning on using. My thoughts were to run the spring directly over the axle. I'm also planning on running tube shocks in the rear. These are the details that I'm pretty commited to.

    I had originally planned on running a set of '36 Ford rear radius rods. Unfortunately I've run into some problems with them. The main problem is that they would require mounting the spring behind the axle. If I did that it would require moving the differential forward 6-7 inches and then the rear tires wouldn't be situated against the box right. I was possibly going to use them shortened and welded together with a yoke at the front to make a wishbone type design.

    Now that I'm not going to be using the '36 wishbones I need to come up with a new plan. I don't want to be really innovative or groundbreaking here. I would prefer something simple that works. I'm not hardcore about using original Ford parts so some type of ladder bars wouldn't be out of the question. I have also been wondering about the frontal mounting location of whatever I end up using. I know the front mounts should ideally be as close together as possible. I know some people have used a "uni-ball" type mount and others have used an old yoke to attach tne two together to make a new centrally mounted wishbone. Is it really such a terrible idea to use frame mounted split bones in the rear?

    I really need some drection/ advice to keep this project moving. I'd love to hear some opinions.
     
  12. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    I say extend the frame and cut up those 35/36 radius rods. :)

    That A rear spring on top of the axxle is going to monster truck your pickup!
     
  13. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Yeah, I know. Extending the frame might be the easiest way to do it but I really am not wild about modifying it unless it's my only option.

    As far as the ride height goes I'm not too worried about it right now- it is a truck after all. I am kind of curious just how high it will be. I can always remove or rearrange some of the leaves if I need to.

    I was hoping to maybe get a few more ideas from people. Maybe I'll have to start a special thread on it...
     
  14. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    Spring in front? Put the wheels back a little bit? Cutting the frame would be more work though. :D
     
  15. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    This afternoon my sister-in-law called me from a garage sale. She said there was some Model A stuff there. I was a little worried the seller might be a restorer and not have anything I could use for my project, but at a minimum I knew ALL car guys tend to have something interesting in the garage so I thought it would be worth a look. A few minutes later I was in the truck on my way down to check it out.:D

    When I got there I saw a pretty rough 30/31 hood in the driveway. I walked past it into the garage and saw some overpriced SBC stuff on a workbench. The guy is entitled to ask whatever he wants for things but personally I don't think $55 for a factory 1970s Q-jet manifold is a good price- even with nice orange paint on it. That was a little discouraging as some of the Model A stuff wasn't marked and I was worried the SBC prices might be an indication of the inflated prices he wanted for the unmarked Model A parts.

    As far as other Model A stuff there was a gas tank, dash, a speedometer, a window mechanism and a few body wood brackets- really nothing I had any use for. I did find a couple of the roof pieces that go between the top of the door and the roof opening. They were in pretty nice shape and already in primer. There was no price on them so I inquired with the seller. I really didn't even think he knew what they were and would probably be scrapping them if I didn't buy them. He told me $15 for the pair and foolishly my first reaction was that it was a lot to ask for. I then asked him about the hood and he told me if I was building a 'rat rod' it might be good but that he actually would scrap it if I didn't want it. Then he told me that if I bought the roof pieces for $15 he would give me the hood for free. I said DONE.:)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The roof repair sections should actually work out pretty well since my passenger side section is in very bad condition.

    As with most garage sales people tend to pretty much give old tools away. I picked up an old pipe vise for $4, a set of chisels for .75, a small c-clamp style seal tool for .25 and a flaring tool for .50.

    [​IMG]

    I guess the real deals got scooped up earlier. The seller told me he sold a pair of Model A doors for $30 and a set of 'camel back' SBC head for $75.

    I was still extremely happy with my finds for the day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  16. fifty5rod
    Joined: Feb 12, 2011
    Posts: 185

    fifty5rod
    Member
    from El Paso TX

  17. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    Whoa! I didn't know you needed those uppers for your cab! Nice!

    When I first moved to MPLS I thought my garage sale finds and thrift shop scores were done. This city amazes me every week!
     
  18. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Got out of work a few hours early today so I headed out to the garage, turned on some Husker Du and got some things done. That's how we do it in Minneapolis, baby!:D. (Well, probably just me, but you gotta light a fire sometimes and this was my spark).:rolleyes:

    The one main ingredient I had been missing from my front end was a steering arm to connect the draglink to the driver's spindle. I was never really a fan of the look of the 'hoop' style arms but that was all I kept seeing on cars. Then after a conversation with Beau we found that Superbell had a nice looking 'slingshot' steering arm. A few days later Beau used his seemingly endless list of contacts to get us a pair of arms locally from the good folks at Union Speed and Style.

    The Superbell arm is a nice looking piece. To me, the 'hoop' steering arms always looked kind of chinsy. The Superbell arm has a nice, solid feel to it. At $50-60 it's more expensive than other arms but front end parts are not an area I'm willing to skimp on. I gave it a few coats of paint and went about bolting that puppy on.

    Here are a few things you should know if you're thinking about going this route:

    1) The grease fitting WILL hit on the steering arm. When I installed my spindles and kingpins I just put in a fairly generic straight grease fitting. The steering arm hit it when I tried to put it in place. A small 90 degree grease fitting might fit but the ones I had here were too big. I had a few 'low clearance' type grease fittings that require a 'needle adapter' to lube left over from another project so I installed one ofthose for now. Even with that special fitting I would have to remove the steering arm to grease the kingpin. Having just installed the kingpin I knew it was thoroughly greased so I wasn't too worried about this for now. Something to think about though.

    2) The steering arm looks pretty identical on both sides but it is not. Like most front end linkages there is a taper to how the tie rod end goes into it. I put it so the big opening was facing up because the tie rod end from the drag link will be entering it that way.

    3) You will have difficulty trying to install this with the factory "grease shields" installed. I initially thought it was impossible but now I'm not sure. This is what I did.

    When I installed my 'bolt-through' steering arms I was able to use large bolts and position the heads of the bolts just right so they butted up against the spindle and wouldn't turn. This wasn't a problem since the bolts didn't need to turn because the nut fastened on the backside of the spindle. However the upper steering arm isn't made like that. Instead of a 'bolt-through' design it is a threaded piece that bolts must go into. The steering arm can't turn so the bolts have to be able to to tighten it into place. In order to put bolts in, the grease retainer has to be removed. The good news is that you don't need it anyway. Apparently the original Ford seals were leather and tended to leak grease. Modern seals don't seem to have this problem so there is no need to keep the grease shields in place. Cool.

    Once the grease shields are out ofthe way the next issue is that the steering arms are threaded for 1/2" fine thread bolts. Those bolts will not fit in p,ace and be able to turn. So, a simple solution was proffered by the HAMB's own Pinewood who suggested using "socket head" bolts. Brilliant! I walked down o the hardware store and bought a pair of inch long socket head bolts for $2.20 each. Easy. A note- you will not be able to fit lock washers under the heads of the bolts so don't waste the $.23 like I did.:rolleyes:

    [​IMG]

    This photo shows the old grease shield after removal. A new socket head bolt, the old, original style 'square head' bolt it replaced, and the new steering arm.

    After installation this is how it looksall put together without the grease shiels and with all the new mounting hardware installed. Socket head bolts seen at top.

    [​IMG]

    Once I had the driver's side all back together I decided to pull the grease shield out ofthe passenger side also just because. There was really no need to do it but it was the kind of thing that would have kept me up at night gnawing at me.
     
  19. ty johnson
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 597

    ty johnson
    Member

    I have a set of 49 F1 brakes. Where did you get your spring hardware and brake parts?
     
  20. ty johnson
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 597

    ty johnson
    Member

    ......aahhh never mind. My dumm arse needs to read a little first. Great project btw.
     
  21. Just a note on the brake situation....

    as far as I've learned, the brake drums are pretty hard to come by for 37-48 setups...originals are usually fucked and can't be cut anymore... and I could only ever track down expensive hotrodding aftermarket replacements.

    BUT! .....for the F1 stuff, you'll have no problem getting drums that will work, for a very reasonable price, at the local parts store.

    You'd end up spending way more on original 37-48 spindles and aftermarket drums than you would on just buying the dropped arms. Plus, you'd be into a little bit more work adapting the 37-41's to the f1 brakes...if you decided to go that route.

    I guess it really depends on what you have to start with....but in the end, F1 brakes are better brakes.
     
  22. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Actually, Dubzilla, I wish that were true but I've found it's VERY hard to find F1 brake drums. The shop I work at is a NAPA auto care center and I have access to the entire inventory of NAPA auto parts inventories. They don't even have a listing for the F1 drums. I also called a HUGE local dedicated brake part supplier and they also don't have a listing for the F1 drums either. The guy there even looked them up in his book and there was nothing for the front. I spent hours scrounging the internet parts sellers and enthusiasts' forums as well. I could only find the drums available through aftermarket F1 restoration places. At those sources the cheapest I could find replacement drums for was $100-120 each. I did find that the F100 drums ('53 and newer) were available pretty readilly through most of the common places like Auto Zone, Napa & O'Reilley's. Unforunately those drums aren't the same as the earlier F1 drums.

    I did come up with a solution that I think will work. I had read about it on one of the vintage Ford truck enthusiasts' sites and also had it suggested to me by one of the most knowledgeable and respected builders in the area. I think it's going to work but I'm not 100% sure about it yet so I'm going to wait until I know positively before I might lead anyone astray with bad information.
     
  23. ty johnson
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 597

    ty johnson
    Member

    1949 Ford F1 Brake Drum

    <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="3">1949 F1 Brakes

    </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">F1 Brake Drum

    </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="center">[​IMG]</td><td height="5" width="5">[​IMG]</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><table class="oddpart" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="middle" width="80%">Raybestos Brake Drum</td><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle" width="10%" align="center">Save 53%</td><td valign="middle" width="10%" align="right">$ 45.35</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> Part Number: 175302 Manufacturer Number: 2611R
    In Stock, Usually ships within 1 business day<table width="100%" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="5">Position, RearPartType, Brake Drum
    </td></tr><tr><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="8%">Ford</td><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="8%">F1</td><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="8%">
    </td><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="6%" align="center">1949</td><td valign="top">
    </td></tr></tbody></table>
    </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>


    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9oG4BA&usg=AFQjCNHUpZNZlKspt1l244vjGf36N55jRg
     
  24. Those are rear drums, fronts are different. That rear drum was used for many years, and is
    not obsolete in the repair parts market, unlike the fronts which were specific to '48-'52 F-1.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  25. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Ty, if you read that closely you will see your link is for REAR drums not front. There were several times during my hunting for them that I had thought I'd finally found them only to put them in my online "cart" and see that they were actually for the rear. For some reason the rears are readilly available but not the fronts.
     
  26. ty johnson
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 597

    ty johnson
    Member

    Well i'm in the same boat with ya then. I need a pair of fronts myself.
     
  27. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    LOSER!

    After a pretty underwhelming response to my post asking for help figuring out a rear suspension arrangement I decided to come up with something on my own. Originally I had planned to use an early Bronco rear axle combined with a pair of '36 rear wishbones re-fashioned into a modified wishbone using the front part of a discarded wishbone yoke. It's a good set-up, but when I mocked it up the rear axle was too far forward. One cool feature of the '36 rear wishbones is that the spring hanger is built onto them and mounts the spring behind the axle. Unfortunately this moves the axle forward about seven inches in the chassis and it no longer lined up correctly with the body. So I had to come up with a new plan.

    This is my first mostly-from-scratch build. I didn't feel any need to reinvent the wheel here so I decided to spare hacking up the '36 wishbones and just use a simple, tried and true ladder bar setup. I found that most people liked the Pete & Jakes ladder bars. They weren't cheap but I knew they would be good quality. When they arrived I indeed found them to be well built, nice pieces although they certainly weren't anything flashy to look at.

    [​IMG]

    I also decided to use the stock rear spring mounted transversely directly over the rear axle. I found Pete & Jakes had a nice installation kit so I ordered that up also. When it came I was anxious to get it tacked onto the axle and get the axle mounted in the chassis.

    Unfortunately the Pete & Jakes rear spring mounts need to be positioned 49.25" apart. With the narrow Bronco axle I was planning on using this would have moved the mounts right up against the brake line where it entered the wheel cylinder. That meant I wouldn't be able to use that axle with the suspension I planned. The early Bronco axle is 58" wide from one wheel mounting surface to the other. Ideally I needed something at least 2-3" wider. I looked online and found that the 9" axle in the F100 trucks up to 1972 was 61.25" wide. I like these axles a lot and have installed two into early trucks. They are also relatively easy to find and usually pretty cheap. I found one for $175 on Craigslist later that day and had it home a few nights later.

    I know technically the rear axle shouldn't be installed until the rest of the driveline is already in so that the pinion angle can be set correctly. However, I REALLY wanted to get this thing into "roller" status as a mild mental victory in the battle of this project. I also needed the project to be mobile so I could move it to storage for the winter in a few months. I did some research and it looked like most people used 3 degrees as a universal pinion angle for street vehicles. I figured I could tack the mounts on at 3 degrees and then install the axle for the time being. Later, once I had the engine installed I could have someone with a more powerful welder permanently install the mounts.

    I got out my angle finder, tape measure and welder. After about 30 minutes of measuring, re-measuring and even more re-meausring I tacked the mounts in place. I was pretty pleased with myself.

    [​IMG]

    I already had the rear spring installed in the chassis and foolishly I thought I might be able to just slide the axle under the truck and bolt it up. No. Obviously. Duh. So I pulled out the spring, disassembled it and just tried to install the main leaf. Again no. Again, duh. Then I did a little research here on the HAMB and came up with this plan. I used an 8" c-clamp and a scrap 2 X 4. I was a a little skeptical and a lot cautious but it worked!

    [​IMG]

    This is probably a 'don't-try-this-at-home' kind of idea...as was the following to get the rest of the spring installed.

    [​IMG]

    I got the bolt through the spring pack and into the main leaf and was slowly tightening it down (and feeling pretty pleased with myself I might add) when all of a sudden- POP!. Once I realized I was still alive and that the spring hadn't grenaded apart I looked over to discover that the right side spring mount had broken off of the axle!

    [​IMG]

    Major bummer. Althoguh, I guess the good thig is that I didn't get hurt.

    I had just tacked the mounts into place with what I thought were some pretty decent welds using a 140 MIG but I guess the spring tension overcame the tacks. I never planned on using my welder for the final install of the mounts but was still kind of surprised the weld broke considering I'd wacked it with a hammer and had been moving the axle using the mounts as handles.

    So, I'm a loser and will be heading back to the drawing board. I intend to keep the same suspension plan but will have to come up with a new plan to temporarily hang the rear axle for now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  28. Ruiner
    Joined: May 17, 2004
    Posts: 4,141

    Ruiner
    Member

    If you have a 140amp welder, just bevel the spring mounts 1/4" and weld them in...just be careful not to warp the axle tube...you should have plenty of power there to weld it into place permanently and safely...
     
  29. Alienbaby17
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 924

    Alienbaby17
    Member

    Beau just stopped by and also suggested beveling might have helped. As frustrated as I am right now I think I'm going to give that a try.
     
  30. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    KEEP GOING! DON'T STOP!!!

    This is a minor, liiiiiiitle setback. Those perches look like they were made of 3/8" plate. They are pretty thick. Maybe even tack in a couple small gussets on the inside of the perch mount.

    I'm real excited to see this rolling! We can bend up a tube to place those ladder bars whenever you want.
     

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