car has had VIN removed

Here's their mission: "The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents, promoting transportation safety, and assisting victims of transportation accidents and their families." Do they really care about rivets??

Bob

 

Don't know about a 56 Poncho. My 59 Ford didn't have a vin plate (still doesn't). I went to DMV and they told me where to find the vin stamped on the frame. They found the number and everything went smooth. No problems.

 

Upon which part of the frame is the frame stamped VIN on a '57 Belair and is there a way to see it without removing the body?
Chuck

 

The VIN on my 62 F100 is on the glove box door - from the factory. If somebody changes the door then they have changed the VIN....won't match the frame stamp but that can't be seen easily - its under the cab

 

Lots of good information here fellas and I learned something as well--who knew there was such a thing as illegal rivets! The 56 Poncho has the vin on a spot-welded aluminum plate on the drivers door frame. I was told it appeared to be drilled out and removed. Ive wanted a Poncho safari to restore for years and thought i finally found one but i've been around long enough to see a dream turn into a nightmare. The real benefit of this experience is tapping into the wealth of knowledge of the HAMB members. I'm not touchin that Poncho fellas.

 

Find the frame VIN (I think it might be located on the top side of the frame rail near drivers door) and go from there, if its not in the Stolen data base than you can get a bonded title or whatever your state issues in this case.

 

I know of a guy that restored an OT car. He wanted to track down a previous owner so he asked a police officer buddy of his to run the VIN and see if he could find the previous owner. The VIN search showed the car had been stolen many years before. The cop went back to the guy that had restored the car. He said he had some bad news...the car was hot. Then he gave him worse news....his Lieutenant wanted to know why he ran that VIN. He told him he saw it on a car part. The Lieutenant doubted his story and told him to produce the part. The guy cut the cowl out and gave to the cop to take to his lieutenant.
Moral of story...the seller better think twice about having the vin checked.

 

I looked at a sweet 56 Chevy a few years ago that was for sale cheap. It too had the VIN missing off the door pillar area which I wasnt terribly concerned with, it can happen for several reasons but, when I asked to see the title and the VIN on the title didnt have the correct alpha/numeric sequence or even the correct amount of digits. Then I knew something was up that and the fact that the owner of the car once owned a wrecking yard.

 

I have a '61 Ford unibody and the vin is on the glove box door, which can be unbolted and lost. Early Broncos ('66-'77) also have the vin on the glove box door.

 

Consider your self lucky,
you figured it out before spending your money.

Most people spend money first, then whine when they get burned.

 

all this talk of touching a vin tag being a felony cracks me up. I am sure the law says something along the lines of "with intent to defraud blah.. blah.. blah".

if it were indeed a felony to even touch a vin tag or change the rivets then half the cars at any car show would be illegal and the owners arrested and thier lives ruined.

removing a vin tag to paint the door jambs is not a felony.

 

Not all vehicles came with riveted (some GM cars had scalloped rivets on them) or spotwelded VIN tags. Ford made them easy to repaint with Phillips headed sheetmetal screws on their mid 50's pickups.

You can even buy stainless steel replacement screws for their VIN tags. I think they're legal if you just replace one screw at a time.

All kidding aside, you might be alright with a state issued VIN on the Safari but I think I'd stay away from this deal too.

 

That vin is like a college degree.

 

The data tag on the cowl or firewall does not show the VIN number. It shows the sequential build for that body style. If you have a 4-dr sedan, that number will have the first part of the VIN (year, division, model, etc.) and the sequential number for 4-dr sedans. The last 6 numbers won't match. The real VIN will list the sequential build for that plant.

 

It does have that wording. Pulling the serial number for painting is not illegal. But you can still get a lot of grief. But the suggestion of getting another tag and using it is illegal.

Having worked at a few GM dealers and with insurance companies where I have to verify VINs, you get an idea of what body style numbers are.

69 is a 4-dr. 67 is a drop top. 37 are coupes. I've seen a few cars with 69 on two door coupes. Explain that away... I recently had looked at a '71 Chevy pick up and the body style on the serial number was '24' (3/4 ton) and the truck was a short bed 1/2 C-10. The serial number should be a '14'.

 

So I guess it would be safe to assume that you guys have never built a Model A/T/'32 from a pile of parts?!?!?

Getting an assigned VIN & title isn't that tough in some states.

JH

 

Ford vin were usually on driver side of frame, between firewall and radiator; They are also on top of the frame rail, above rear axel,...Visible only with body off. I found the one on a 40 frame i was checking out at a swap meet. The advice re; checking stuff out is good....A story came out about someone buying and restoring a car,..THEN he goes to title it...turns out, an insurance claim was paid for a stolen car....You guessed it...the guy who restored it lost the car to the previous owner,..as well as losing all the $$ he put into it !! Be very careful.......

4TTRUK

 

According to Indiana BMV:
All vehicles, manufactured homes, and watercraft in Indiana must have a vehicle identification number (VIN) or hull identification number (HIN) stamped or attached to the vehicle or watercraft. If the vehicle or watercraft does not have one, is assembled or changed, then an MVIN or HIN application must be completed.

http://www.in.gov/bmv/2664.htm

My '35 Ford has a state assigned VIN on it like this... due to the original front VIN stamping being lost when the frame was re-done in the front. I'm hoping someday to pull the body off the frame and try to find one of the other VIN stamping locations so I could get it changed back to original some day.

 

If you have a newly built car or bike and go to the DMV to get a vin, they give you a stick on one, here in OR and your title comes in the mail a short time later.

 

If you want to look at the vin in the frame you may need to cut holes in the floor. The vin on a 57 chevy frame is on the top driver rail under the drivers seat area, around the body brace area. The frame is also stamped about 18 to 24 inches further back on the same top of the driver frame rail. It is hard to see let alone find with a mirror and if the frame is rusty.

 

So the body has to be removed to see a "hidden vin #???

 

We've strayed off topic a bit. It's not a question of wether or not a VIN has ever been, or can be altered or changed, or wether everyone who done this has been caught and prosecuted. Chances are you may get away with it, at least for a period of time. The problem starts when the alteration is discovered, even far in the future, and a chain of ownership has to be established back to the manufacturer. I'm not a lawyer, but I can read the Ohio Revised Code §4549.62, and at best you will end up explaining what you've done to a judge and paying court costs and investigation costs. At worst the altered part or entire car may be seized, and future owners may come after you. I saw this happen to a fellow about 10 years ago involving a '69 Camaro with a Nova VIN. He lost the car and had to sue the innocent previous owner (a dealer) in GA. The car had been stolen when new and went undetected for 30 years. The last thing I want is a sheriff handing me a summons for a car I sold 30 years ago. That said, check with your state and see if there is a legal procedure for registering the car.

 

Talk about straying off topic. The OP found a car with the tag removed. A VIN tag is not a VIN, it's a tag with a number on it. There's a big difference between removing a tag and grinding a number off a chassis and changing the numbers, as your INTENT is to cover up a stolen car, or to mislead a purchaser.

Non-factory rivets may provide a clue or a presumption that the tag was removed and possibly changed, but if it still matches the "hidden" numbers, then apparently no wrong was done.

It's kind of like those tags on mattresses and other upholstery--- you can't go to jail for removing them after you buy the thing.

 

I worked at a assembly plant here in KC. The rivits were kept under lock and key. Every rivit had to be accounted for. Rumor was, chop shops would pay $1000 for each rivit.

 

Lots of talk about rivets, etc but the OP has a Pontiac...here is what the tag looks like on that car, it's spot-welded to the A-pillar:

 

Well, this is a pretty long read and about OT cars, but some "real world" information in it.
Larry T

http://www.classictiger.com/vinopin.html

"10.7.51 of the CA. motor vehicle code:

It is illegal to remove or alter the vin # of a motor vehicle.....Should an altered vin # be
encountered (which includes method of attachment) at best the tag is seized, and a state tag will
be placed on the vehicle in place of the original (that'll really help if you ever go to sell the car).
Should the vehicle not have a secondary #, to authenticate its identity, the vehicle will be crushed.

Tigers don't have a secondary vin placement, and the 302 engine might not be original, and neither
is that 5 speed, so those numbers aren't available to compare...Still wanna pop the tags???

By the way, this is direct from an auto theft detective who worked 10+ years in CA. doing auto
theft investigations. He likened the scenario to when the Hells Angels would steal a Harley, and
swap out the case half with the vin number. A check of another component would reveal it to be
stolen. The bike was seized, then crushed, because it could not be returned in the illegally altered
state.

The detective also mentioned that sometimes, if its impounded (dead on freeway, etc.) the
impounding CHP Trooper will check the vin-if he doesn't like what he's found...it's the state's until
you satisfy them it's not stolen. You'll probably lose your Rootes vin tag, and get a state one when
the car is released. This same detective stated he had authorized several cars, and lots of Harleys
to be crushed in CA. because of vin tag problems.

So, does this apply nationwide? YES. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but vin tags are
mandated by law to stay put.

As I said yesterday, if yours have been popped, then that's that. Nothing you can do about it,
unless you could replicate the original exactly so that it would pass inspection. It will probably
never be an issue. The detective knew just in talking that the Tiger vin rivets were noticeably
different from american pop rivets, by the way.

Hopefully this answers some of those nagging doubts, and will put to rest the idea that popping
tags is okay to do.

Von Levandowski



Second post - 5/13/97

This is intended for those who are considering doing a full restoration, and who want to take the
serial number plate off the cowl.

In an effort to determine the accuracy of my statements I spoke to: a civilian inspector from the
Washigton State Vehicle Inspection Center, a local Auto Theft Detective who previously worked
for a large southern California police agency as an auto theft detective, the FBI and the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

In 1968 there was a Federal Standards Act, which codified the placement and attachment method
of vin tags. This resulted in the familiar windshield placement of the vin, so that it became 'public',
and open to inspection by law enforcement without court order or permission. This was not the
first time that vins were mandated under Federal Law. Remember though, that vehicles are 'real
property', and have titles issued which use the serial number/vin to identify the vehicle.

Prior to 1958 the engine block number of each vehicle was the identification number used for the
vehicle-remember the Harley example? This also applied to cars, and when you exchanged the
motor in your pre-1958 auto, you were supposed to notify the State Dept. of Motor Vehicles to
have them record the serial number change. This was obviously cumbersome, and was changed.

AFTER 1958, Federal law amended the rules, assigning a vehicle I.D. number/serial number to
the CHASSIS of each car. This puts ALL of the 1960s Tigers within the rules regarding serial/vin
numbers. There is no federal law which allows these numbers to removed for restoration.

Regarding Due Process-since the Federal Law was instituted in '58, this arguement does not
apply. Since the engine number was used as the I.D. by the states prior to '58, this arguement still
does not apply. Sorry. Further, vehicle registrations are not governed by the Feds...we have
individual state plates, not a Federal License plate. In an instance where the Feds are absent, the
States are allowed to exercise their taxing authority (remember State's Rights?). In all 50 states of
the Union, vehicle licenses are handled under state authority.

The civilian inspector for WSP stated that a sure fire way to get a car flagged as a problem vin,
was to show up with glistening paint under the 32 year old vin or serial number plate. They will
flag the car, inspect the rivets, determine if they've been tampered with, require documentation,
and affix their own tag-often next to the original, using the same numbers. Remember, that if you
move to a different state (like to WA. for the big Microsoft/Boeing bucks), you will usually have
to get your car inspected before they will issue plates.

According to the detective who had worked in southern Ca., California Highway Patrol
inspectors see it the same way, and act in the same manner. In fact, just about all of the states
follow a similar program.

Per the FBI Agent, there is no Federal Law allowing vin tags to be removed for restoration, and
all of the vehicle registration issues are handled on the STATE level.

On the state level, cars without tags can get crushed-3 Tigers which were stolen and had the vins
popped were crushed in Santa Ana in about 1975...the parts had all been swapped around, and
the Judge ordered them destroyed because they could not determine real identity of any of the
cars, and a 1964 Corvette was crushed when the owner popped the tag for restoration, and had
no supporting documentation...a fact firsthand from a detective involved in the cases........."

 

Not saying it doesn't happen, but removing the VIN tag even for a paint job is absolutely illegal in North Carolina.

 

I live in Virginia, and when I put the 49 Dodge truck body on my 1991 Dodge Dakota chassis, the DMV said that I had to apply for a "Rebuilt" title and that they would inspect the vehicle and assign it a brand new VIN and a State Police person would attach the new VIN plate to the truck. Weird thing is that they will call it a "1949 Dodge Truck" because that's what it LOOKS like, even though I have the title & VIN from the Dakota. And it doesn't matter what percentage of parts actually ARE 1949 Dodge truck parts. All that they care about is what it LOOKS like. So, fiberglass 34 Ford bodies on brand new frames are still called a "1934 Ford" (in Virginia, anyway!). I'd inquire at your DMV first, but If you buy the body as "parts" and then title it as a "rebuilt" car...??? Get plenty of photos, documentation, a bill of sale, etc....
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A little OT, but that's another reason that I like Chrysler products... their VIN's can be decoded to tell you what the car started life as. My Road Runner, for instance, has an RM23N1G at the beginning of the VIN. RM=Belvedere body style, but the M means "Medium" price class. ALL Road Runners were RM's (Satellites and GTX's were RS's, RP's, etc.) 23= 2 dr hardtop. N = engine code. Mine is/was a 383 4 barrel car originally. 1 = model year (1971). G= Assembly plant (St. Louis, if I recall). If someone swaps a VIN from a Duster onto a Road Runner, you'd be able to spot it in a split second if you knew even rudimentary VIN decoding. <o></o>
<o> </o>
When I used to run my restoration parts store, I'd get at least a phone call a week asking how you could tell if your Chevelle "SS" was really an "SS" model. I'd ask "Does it have the SS emblems on it? They'd say YES! and I'd say "Well, then it must be an SS!" No one ever told me a way to tell! The body data plate, the VIN… no way to decode that. On a Mopar, the data plate was the Rosetta Stone to tell you what options, engine, transmission, etc. your car was supposed to have, what color that it left the factory, what date that it was scheduled to be assembled…<o></o>
<o> </o>

 

HOWEVER... I just recalled that a friend of mine bought my Dad's daily driver after it was "totalled" by the insurance company in Pennsylvania, and she went through HELL trying to get it re-titled here in Virginia. I swapped out the hood & fender and straightened the bumper, rad support & reattached the fascia, and the DMV wanted receipts for all of the parts, (notarized) bill of sale from my Dad to her, and receipts for the repair work. They didn't care one bit that I had done the repair work in my driveway for her for free. They still wanted receipts because that's what the LAW says must happen for a "totalled" car. They almost refused to title it even after her 4th trip to the DMV because there was "no way that someone could rebuild a totalled car in the driveway". Fortunately for everyone concerned, I like taking LOTS of digital pictures as I do most any project and like comparing the "before" and "after" shots.

Bottom line; Do LOOOOOOOOOTS of research and ask twelve different people at the DMV, state police, etc. about how to get it registered (IF you can at all!). Get names & phone numbers of the people that you talked to, and what sections of the Motor Vehicle Code that they are referencing.

Good Luck!!!